Unraveling money myth's and mindsets (with Laura Gates-Lupton)

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Today, we are diving deep into money, mindset, and financial freedom with life and money with coach Laura Gates-Lupton. We’re breaking apart the stories we tell ourselves about money as women—stories that make us feel trapped, insecure, and totally responsible for everything. Laura sheds light on the differences in how men and women approach money, why women carry so much guilt around it, and how we can redefine financial freedom for ourselves. If you’ve ever felt weighed down by money stress, this episode is for you! 

Topics in this episode:

  • The hidden emotional burden women carry around money (and how to release it) 

  • Why working moms struggle to feel financially "free" (even when they earn well) 

  • The unique superpower women have when it comes to managing money 

  • How to start taking yourself (and your financial future) more seriously 

  • Why you deserve to invest in yourself—without guilt or justification

Show Notes & References:

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Transcript

Intro

Hey, working moms. Today on the podcast, I'm having an amazing conversation around money. I'm joined by life and money coach Laura Gates Lupton, and together we're breaking apart the money story that we tell ourselves as women that has led to us feeling trapped, insecure, selfish, and totally responsible for the money in our families. Laura brings some interesting insights between the way men and women think about money, how to handle money, and why. Actually, women have a very unique superpower when it comes to managing finances. If you're looking to break free from old money stories and feel more freedom in your financial life, then this episode is for you. You ready? Let's get to it.

Welcome to the Ambitious and Balanced Working Moms Podcast, your go to resource for integrating your career ambitions with life as a mom. I'm distilling down thousands of coaching conversations I've had with working moms just like you, along with my own personal experience as a mom of two and sharing the most effective tools and strategies to help you quickly feel calm, confident, and in control of your ambitious working mom life. You ready? Let's get to it.

Talking Money, Women, and Financial Freedom

Rebecca: Hello, working moms. I am so excited to bring a guest for you today. I have Laura Gates Lupton for you. And this is someone I got in touch with not that long ago, to be honest. I was on her podcast, and then we just had such a great time talking. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I need to bring you onto my podcast and we need to talk about your expertise.

She is a money expert. I'm gonna have her introduce herself right now, but we're gonna have a really amazing conversation around money and being women, and the impact of money and financial freedom and all the things that kind of come along with money.

Meet Laura Gates Lupton: Life and Money Coach

Laura: Oh, thank you, Rebecca. It's so much fun to be here. Yeah. So I am a life and money coach, and I purposely keep the life part in there, not just the money—because it's never just about the money.

I consider myself a financial feminist, and my home base right now is in Cincinnati, Ohio. But as Rebecca knows, I travel around quite a lot pet sitting. So at this very moment, I am in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Joey the Cat: The Pen Stealer

Rebecca: I love it. So good. And you have a cat that steals pens.

Laura: Yeah, it's actually my housemate's cat, but yes.

Rebecca: I mean, I just find this hilarious. I don't know if there's anybody else out there that has a cat that steals pens, but that just cracks me up—the image of a cat literally going into your office and taking pens.

And you told me that you actually lose pens. Like you go through periods where you're like, I don't have a pen. Where did my pen go?

Laura: Yeah. I can't leave them sitting out. I've had to get in the habit of putting them in something to corral them or else—yeah. And he walks around with them in his mouth. You see him just trotting along with a pen in his mouth.

Rebecca: Oh my gosh, I just think that's hilarious. What's the cat's name?

Laura: Joey.

Rebecca: Joey. Joey the cat and the pen stealer. So fun. Oh my gosh.

Money, Responsibility, and Women

Rebecca: Okay, enough. Let's get a little bit more—actually, I don't even want to get serious. I want to get more fun, because money does tend to be a very serious topic, right?

It holds so much weight, like literal pressure and heaviness and responsibility. I think we as women carry this connection between money and responsibility in a way that is just really not helpful to us.

And so I don’t want to be heavy. I do want to make this more fun and light, for that matter. I just want to open up by talking about how you see women interact with money—particularly women that maybe they're the breadwinners or maybe they just share a lot of the financial load.

So I’m curious what you've been seeing in your clients and in the world these days around the connection between those two things.

Women as Breadwinners: An Uphill Climb

Laura: Yeah. I think the first thing I'll say is that if you are a woman who's making decent money—whether you're the breadwinner or you're just sharing a lot of the financial load—then you've done amazing work to get there. Because it's been a much harder climb for you than it has been for the man in your life or the men around you.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Laura: In part because we're just not raised to be breadwinners. Nobody tells you when you're a little girl, "You're going to grow up to be a breadwinner." So if you've gotten there, that's really amazing.

And I really see it as a developmental step that a lot of women miss. My background is in psychotherapy. I was a psychotherapist for 20 years before I became a coach. And so if you've gotten there, you've gotten there. It's been an uphill climb, and so I just want to acknowledge that right off the bat.

Acknowledging the Harder Climb for Women

Rebecca: Yeah, I got a hold there for a second because literally I don't know if anybody has ever told me that before. Like, I don't know if I've ever really processed being somebody that makes good money as like acknowledging that it was harder for me than the male world.

And obviously I know that as you say that, but like, I've never given myself credit for that. And I bet a lot of people listening have never stopped to think that this wasn't easy to get to this point—and you had more systematic blocks and cultural blocks than half the population.

And so good on you for making it. Like, wow. I just… like that actually hit me when you said it. I was like, oh my gosh, I don't give myself enough. Instead, I live in a lot more like shame, not-enoughness, responsibility. Like this, this level of, of "I'm doing something wrong," instead of "I'm doing something right." So thank you for saying that. I appreciate that. What else?

Laura: Yes, but you know, we tend to look at the deficits, right? Like, I'm not making enough, or I'm dropping the balls here, or whatever it is. We tend to look at those things instead of like, wow, this was a really hard climb and I've gotten to this point. And yeah, I'm gonna keep climbing—but celebrate where you're at.

Rebecca: Yeah, I love that. Oh gosh, thanks for taking that. What else are you noticing out there?

The Unequal Burden of Household Management

Laura: Well, I'm noticing a lot of dissatisfaction in women's lives around household splitting chores, household management, all the responsibility that falls on women's shoulders.

You know, when a man is a CEO, for example, he's got usually a woman who's managing a lot of tasks. And they probably had paid staff who were doing it too. But there's also a woman who's managing the staff.

And women don't generally have that, whether they have a stay-at-home husband or not. They usually don't have somebody who's taking on all of that managerial role within the family in addition to the hands-on stuff.

Rebecca: Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. Why is that? That's actually true. I do work with plenty of… I have CEOs as clients. I have many breadwinners as clients, and I've had plenty that aren't. But it's true that they don't hire household managers or nannies always. Like they don't. It's kind of the… that's interesting. What is that?

Laura: Think of it. I think a lot of it has to do with guilt. We're raised to fill those roles. And so even if you've chosen to take on another role, you feel like you still need to fill those roles anyway.

Why Women Struggle to Rest at Home

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: I was talking with a woman last week. She's a very successful real estate agent. She's the breadwinner in her household. Her husband's a stay-at-home dad. And she said, "When I get home, I don't feel like I can put my feet up. Doesn't matter how many deals I've closed in a day. I feel like when I get home, I've gotta be there for the kids. I've gotta do things to make sure the kitchen's set, make sure things are ready for school the next day—all those things."

Yeah, I don't hear that from the male clients that I have.

Rebecca: Right. Interesting. What do you hear from them, out of curiosity?

Laura: They go home and relax.

Rebecca: Oh, it's like, "I did enough for the day." They feel this sense of satisfaction and like, ew, I'm good. I did it.

Laura: My job is done.

Rebecca: My job's done. I checked it. I checked that box. We have endless boxes. There is no limit to our boxes. And so we just keep going. Interesting.

Laura: That's right. And in fact, from a lot of the men, I will hear some frustration—that there might be other expectations of them when they get home and trying to understand that. And of course, I try to help them see that there is another perspective—what their female partners may be experiencing.

Redefining Financial Freedom for Women

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Interesting. So, you know, I hear a lot from women, like a desire to… I mean, we'll call it financial freedom. Right.

It's kind of to get out from maybe their partner being their sole breadwinner, or being the breadwinner of some kind, or holding the financial responsibility. Or the financial freedom to be able to live life in the way that they want.

Or just—I mean, to me, when I think about financial freedom, I just feel like I just don't want to feel burdened by it. Like I don't want to think about money as much as I think about money. That's what financial freedom means to me.

I don't mind if I have to pick and choose based on a budget at times—I'm willing to do that. But there's just so much emotion related to this. Why do you think women, probably more than ever, are thinking about wanting freedom with money?

Laura: I think it's for exactly what you're talking about. It's that burdensome feeling of "This is another ball I have to juggle, and it's a big one."

It's constantly on my mind. It's not something that's just sort of in the background. It ends up being at the forefront of a lot of our decisions.

And it's what we were saying at the top of the podcast. Right. It's heavy. It's heavy.

And so for me, when I think of freedom, I think of lightness. And so I think that's a part of it, too.

I love to ask people questions around freedom, like: What does it actually mean to you? And what would financial freedom look like to you? Because often it's kind of an amorphous concept that hasn't really been defined.

It's really just more of like, "I just don't want this heaviness in my life."

What Does Financial Freedom Really Mean?

Rebecca: Interesting. How do most people define it?

Laura: It really, really varies. I've had people who say, "I just don't want to think about it. So I just want it in the background, quietly running, and I don't want to think about it. And that's financial freedom to me."

Other people are like, "I don't want to have to work for it anymore. I'll probably keep working, but I don't want to have to."

Rebecca: But I don't want to have to think about my paycheck. Yeah.

Laura: Yes. I want to have options. I want to be able to walk away from my job at any time.

Why Women Want Financial Freedom More Than Ever

Rebecca: Interesting. Yeah. Why is there a surge right now of this? Why do we want this as women?

Laura: Well, I wouldn't be surprised if, at least in the States, this recent election and this move to suppress so many of our rights… If you have a lot of money, it can combat some of that.

If you're in a state that won't allow you to have an abortion, and you need an abortion, you've got the money to go for it. You can.

Rebecca: Pay for it. Or if you want another kid, you can go through the IVF round. Right. Like that's possible for you. Yeah, totally.

It literally—there is no question that more money creates more ease in terms of opportunities. Right. It absolutely gives you lots more options than you might otherwise have.

Laura: Absolutely. The whole "money can't buy you happiness" is bullshit in my mind. Are we allowed to swear on this podcast?

Rebecca: No.

Laura: It's okay. Well, what do I want to say? I don't believe it. The whole thing about "money can't buy you happiness" as a blanket statement… sure, money is not going to make you happy all by itself.

But it does afford choices. And the more choices you have, that can increase your sense of happiness and fulfillment—because you don't feel trapped. Right. A lot of us feel trapped.

And I think that's part of why financial freedom is appealing, because it's part of escaping some of the traps that we're in.

The Trap of Fixed Income Jobs

Rebecca: Right. I find it hard as I start thinking about how even I coach my clients through money and money challenges. Because most of us live in—or have, not really living, but have—traditional jobs that literally have caps on their income. Right.

And you might be in a job that can give bonuses or is in that type of work where there is that ceiling that is way higher or is much more flexible. But like my husband literally can't make any more money than he can make at the moment. Like, and he will always be in that money bracket until he moves up into a different job and that's it.

Like it is determined across the board what his money is going to be. And we can literally look at those bumps and know. So then that doesn't feel like freedom to me.

Laura: No, no. I can see why it wouldn't.

Rebecca: Yeah. But I think a lot, most of us live in that zone. I don't actually think—maybe I'm wrong—but I'm not in that zone because I'm an entrepreneur.

Laura: But.

Rebecca: And entrepreneurs have a different kind of world. But if you don't live in like a bonus structure kind of job, then that's, that's it.

Entrepreneurs and Financial Freedom

Laura: Yeah. Most of my clients are entrepreneurs. Most of them are solopreneurs.

Rebecca: Oh, interesting.

Laura: Not entirely.

Rebecca: That's very different.

Laura: Yeah. I do have employed clients, but most of them are not. Most of them have some kind of business of their own. And even if they're employed, usually they have some kind of thing on the side to create more income.

Rebecca: Yeah. So then how do you start talking about kind of freedom that comes with money, do you think? In a very fixed, fixed type of job salary range way, do you think?

Defining What Financial Freedom Means for You

Laura: Yeah. Well, the first thing would be to define what that freedom would mean to you. So depending on the definition, it may not be possible in the job. Right.

So if you don't sit down and figure out what it means, you're just in this endless loop of frustration.

So if, for your husband for example, if his idea of financial freedom is increasing his income to a certain point where it can invest enough that then he can live off the interest—that may not work with a capped salary.

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So then you have. I'd say this to my clients a lot around other things related more to like work-life balance and demands that are being put on them.

But I remind them a lot, you're in an at-will employment agreement. You can walk away at any given time. Is this something you want to walk away over?

I mean it always stops them in their track. They're like, no, no, I don't think so. You know, it's like, no, I don't think so. It's like, oh, okay. Because you're sort of talking to me as if you have no choice. So let's talk about the choice that you have in this moment.

It always helps us to move through that moment. But we're kind of saying the same thing here. If you box yourself into a salary range or a type of job or an employment status of some kind that limits you and you want to make more money, you're going to have to do something about that.

Where Is Your Power in the Situation?

Laura: Right? And the question I love to ask people is, well, where's your power in the situation? Like, let's figure out where your power is.

And so for some people that might be taking on some kind of side hustle, some kind of thing outside of work to create the kind of income that they want. Or it might be what you're saying, which is to walk away, find something different.

And for women in particular, I'd love to know from you if you see this, but for women in particular, we tend to be very loyal. So women have a hard time going to the next job.

But that is one way to increase your income—is to strategically move from job to job, of course, and negotiate higher salaries.

Rebecca: Yeah, of course it is. And I see it particularly true after they've had a kid or two, because they see their company as having been loyal to them through a transitional part of their life that then they feel somewhat indebted to versus recognizing that that's the law.

There are literally laws in place that protect your job. They couldn't have fired you and…

Laura: Law also do that.

Rebecca: You from when you're gonna take—you get to take a break and so forth. Now we can all get into like, it's not a paid break all the time and all blah, blah, blah, all the things. But it's still required, right?

They didn't do anything for you specifically. This should be the standard.

Laura: Yes, yes. But particularly if you have a manager, supervisor who has been kind about it, it can feel like it's a favor somehow that they've given you the favor.

Rebecca: Right. Instead of this should be the norm, you know.

Laura: Yes.

You’re Not Indebted to Your Company

Rebecca: Oh, we can get into all sorts of kinds of things about parental leaves and all the benefits that should be coming along with that and so forth. We got a long way to go in that topic.

But yeah, nobody—you’re not indebted to your company. You get to move on.

Laura: You're not, you're not. And for women, it's really hard to think just what's best for me. We tend to look around us and see, which I think is a lovely thing in general.

We tend to take into consideration all the people around us. But it can be detrimental when you're talking about employment and making decisions around, well, is this the best position for me right now? What else is out there?

For the few employed clients that I have, I always encourage people to keep an eye on the market because you never know when you're going to need to make a jump. Yep. Yep.

Rebecca: I was just talking to a client about that the other day who has no intention of going anywhere in her job. And she was just saying, yep, I just like you said, I've put my net out there towards X, Y, or Z. Just because you're an at-will employee. You got to make your own decisions. Right.

And I think we should be—we tend to evaluate our kind of life choices and big transitional moments. Getting married, having kids, the loss of a loved one, a difficult sickness. Right. Things like that.

Covid—big transition, somewhat even maybe even traumatic kinds of moments in life. Those are the obvious times that we think about our life decisions and decide if we want to continue to make those decisions moving forward.

But we need to be doing that on a much more regular basis than we are. We need to be doing it intentionally. Thinking about, am I on the path I want to be on? Is this moving me in the direction I want to go? Am I gonna be happy if I got to the end of my life and I didn't make any changes here right now? Right. Like, those are important questions.

Life Seasons and Money Decisions

Laura: Yes. And I also, I'm a firm believer in looking at life in seasons. You having young kids is a season of your life, and the decisions you make then are gonna be different when they're older or when you're an empty nester.

I'm an empty nester now. I have been since May. The decisions I'm making are completely different. This is a new season for me.

So I'm also really fond of looking at things that way, so that when you're looking at money, for example, the decisions you make around money are gonna be different depending on the season that you're in.

Rebecca: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, absolutely. Needing to think about it and be much more nimble.

Why do we feel so—as women—so maybe fixed, bogged down, responsible when it comes to money, I think it's…

Laura: Cause we're made to be responsible by almost everything. You know, it's like if your kids aren't doing well, somehow it's your fault. If things aren't going well at home, somehow it's your fault. There's not enough money, somehow it's your fault.

Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. Do you see that in men? Do they feel the same kind of burden? I mean, I know men feel some sense of burden or responsibility to life.

Laura: Oh, they do.

Rebecca: To take care of the—to provide. That's the word we have heard for years: provide for the family. I assume that they have that, but is it different?

Men Feel Burdened by Provision, Women Stack Responsibilities

Laura: Yeah, it is different. What I see in men is that they feel burdened by having to provide. They're groomed to be providers. They feel like they don't have choices. So if they had, like, for example, I had a client who loved film and his dream really would have been to go to film school, but he didn't do that. He became an architect.

Rebecca: Right.

Laura: You know, because there's more money there. And so there's still that longing inside of him. But he feels very trapped. And no, I have kids now. I have a family. I need to continue this. And maybe when I retire, I'll go back and look at film.

He's not thinking about the household and how it's running. Like it's a totally different level of burden.

Rebecca: I see. I see. So there's something about the fact that, like, men might be able to isolate this to a money or provision kind of conversation. But women stack the money, provision, responsibility, future of the family, the management of the family, the happiness of the family. They stack all of it together in one big ball.

Schools Call Mom First—The Hidden Load of Responsibility

Laura: Yeah. I mean, if your kids are in school and they're having a problem, who does a school call?

Rebecca: Well, whoever's on file. But usually it's the mom.

Laura: Exactly.

Rebecca: Yeah, exactly. I had a friend and I wouldn't want it any other way, to be honest. So it's—I mean, I've had to have that conversation with myself. I could delegate that out. I mean, I wouldn't delegate it. We could have a conversation where my husband would be the point person on that.

I don't want it. I want to be the person that's a part of, like, my mama bear instincts. But I'm okay. I've thought about it, made the choice. I don't feel like I have to. Maybe that's really where it is. It's like that choice. It's the lack of choice we give ourselves as women, as we see everything as if it's feeling like a burden.

Responsibility has a “have to” element to it. It has a, like, I have no other choice, this must be the way it is always kind of a feel to it—versus a freeing feel when you've decided.

Laura: Right. And what would it say about me if I said no, I want to have my kid’s dad's name on there and not mine?

Rebecca: What would it say? M. Yeah. That is something to have to work through.

Laura: Yeah. And I've had friends who've had to fight with schools when they've divorced to have dads notified. And they'll say, well there's room for one name. It's like, it's a computer program. Like, I'm sure you can put other names on there. But you know, they call the mom, they don't call the dad.

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. That is very true. And I don't know if I have untangled in my mind how I think about money and how similar that is to how I think about responsibilities across the board for our family in that way.

The Double Burden of Money and Family

Laura: Yeah. I think the hard part for us in general is that when we're making money, we're worried that we're not doing what we should be doing at home or with the kids.

And when we're at home with the kids, we're worried that we're not doing what we should be at work and making money.

We’re very rarely where we are, thinking about what we’re doing.

Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah.

Laura: All those other things are still there, percolating.

Rebecca: Yeah. And yeah, to your point, like in our mind what we have is making good money means sacrificing our family in order to do it. Like that's—we kind of equate that in our mind.

Laura: That's why I love the work that you do.

Rebecca: Yes.

Laura: You know. Cause I think it's so needed.

Rebecca: Yeah. For sure, for sure.

How the Feminist Movement Left Working Moms Behind

Rebecca: This might be a rabbit trail, but it's reminding me. And I don't even remember if we talked about this, but it was so eye-opening to me.

I think I saw this on a Mom’s First. Do you follow Mom’s First? It was—I think it was their conference last year, actually. And it was so good. You should surely follow them. They're an advocacy organization for women in the workforce, specifically around the intersection of parenthood—so parental leaves, childcare benefits, all the things.

But they were talking, somebody was giving over, like, a little bit of a history around how we've gotten to where we are. And they went back to the feminist movement and they said the women that wanted to be feminists and wanted to be moms were left behind.

It was a period of time where we were trying to step out of the mold that women had been put in, which was in the home. And if you wanted to be in the home, then you were left behind.

But inevitably most women have kids and so they are, in fact, in the home. And so actually, there was a lot of shame put on women that were working moms because there was so much confusion. Right.

And so now here we are. Women have made much more strides since that point, but working moms have actually—their growth is tiny in comparison to what we've seen in terms of women's growth if we separated the two of them.

And I was fascinated by that idea. That is where, like, the working mom was left behind because there was so much kind of shame in your desire to be a mom at that time in trying to break out of the mold.

Early Feminism and the Missing Role of Motherhood

Laura: Right. That makes total sense to me. I mean, I think the early models of feminism were being more like men—not in the sense of us being masculine, but having the roles that have been denied to us that men had. And motherhood did not fit in that picture.

Rebecca: Right.

Laura: And the idea that you can have it all, as we've been told so many times—it…having it all means having all the responsibility.

The Wage Gap for Working Moms

Rebecca: Yeah. It's so interesting to think about the journey here. I mean, working moms—like, if we look at the statistics about what they make versus not just even versus men, but versus women that don't have kids, versus men that become parents—like these huge gaps that exist between working moms.

And then if we want to go to, like, different ethnicities and the marginalized, we have even greater numbers.

Laura: Right. Even more dire picture.

Rebecca: Yeah, I know.

Laura: Yes.

Why Shame Still Follows Women and Money

Rebecca: All of this kind of leads again back to like, here's where we are for women in our money story and as a culture.

And for working moms making good money, it makes sense that the sort of shame story kind of still follows us to this day, because we actually haven't really addressed the story so much as we've tried to address the action, if you will.

Laura: Right.

Rebecca: Well.

Laura: And we tend to make everything really personal. The fact that there isn't enough quality childcare that's affordable is really a cultural, societal issue. But it plays out in our lives as a personal issue.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Laura: Right. So, we feel like somehow we're failing when we're trying to do this dance, this juggling and all this stuff. Right. But really, honestly, if you look at it, we're failing because the system is failing us.

The Cost of Childcare and the Shame Working Moms Carry

Rebecca: Yeah, for sure. For sure. Actually. And I didn't even go there when you just said that. What I said in my mind—and I happen to live in one of the most expensive places in our country to live in the San Francisco Bay Area—so childcare is astronomical in some ways.

But I shame myself because it feels like I can't make, quote, make enough money for us to like, pay for childcare along with the rest of our living, the ways that we want to live in our life. And then I shame myself for that versus, like, we've just got a systemic problem.

Laura: Yes.

Rebecca: And it's not my fault that we've got a systemic problem. I mean, I do have choice in where I choose to live. And we certainly did evaluate that pretty heavily at one point and said, nope, we're gonna stay here. And along with that comes the challenge of some of these financial implications of that.

But, yeah, for sure. We personalized it.

Laura: Absolutely. When I was a therapist, I was working for an agency in Ithaca, New York, that did not pay particularly well. And a couple of the women on staff confided in me that their salary was just covering childcare. Yeah, that was it.

And I had some guilt around, but I'm working anyway because I really want to.

Rebecca: Yes, yes. And I felt guilty for that.

Laura: Yeah.

Why Women See Their Salary as “Childcare Money”

Rebecca: Yeah, for sure.

Laura: And it's also interesting too, that nobody said, my husband's salary just covers childcare. It's like—that's how the women would think about it. As if it's like that either/or: like, I can work or stay home.

And, if I'm only paying for childcare, then, oh, I probably should be home. And that feeling.

Rebecca: Right, right.

Laura: That should.

Rebecca: Yeah, that should.

Laura: As opposed to: this is important to me.

Rebecca: It perpetuates all sorts of other stories around not feeling like you can spend money because you don't make money. And because you devalue the work that you're doing at the home, you devalue what I assume was probably a co-decided decision for you to stay home. And all the things.

We kind of disregard all of that because we put so much in money as an identifier of success.

Laura: Success. Yeah. Value. Absolutely.

Rebecca: Worthiness.

Laura: A.B.

Rebecca: Yes, all the things.

Laura: Absolutely, absolutely.

The Long-Term Cost of Stepping Out of the Workforce

Laura: And there's also that piece too, that if you're looking at it in the short term of like, oh, my salary is only covering childcare right now. And so there's that should.

There's the piece about long-term career. Like if you take 10, 15, 20 years out of your career to take care of kids, it's not like you can pick it back up. There's a gap. You struggle.

When you go back, you're going to be starting off with the people who are that many years younger than you in terms of where you're at.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Laura: So there's that piece too. But we tend not to think about that so much for women. You know, it's like, at least in individual lives, when I talk to individual women, they tend not to think about it so much that way.

Whereas men do think about their career trajectories more that way. Oh, I can't take a break. Like—so, like I was saying earlier about the men who feel the burden of breadwinning, part of it is they feel like they can't take time off because they'll lose where they're at on the career path.

Rebecca: Something. Right, right. They'll miss out somehow on their career trajectory, whatever that might be. And whether that's like we're literally talking about a gap or we could just be talking about like, I can't not be in that meeting because.

Laura: Right.

Decisions, Meetings, and the Fear of Missing Out

Rebecca: Decisions could be made in that meeting and then I won't be in it. And that'll have implications for, you know, blah, blah, blah. Women feel that way too for sure. But see how that would perpetuate a lot of that cycle.

Because of that, how do you start working through some of these things? I mean one, everybody out there, you should hire Laura or someone like Laura for sure to help you through that. But if you were to start talking to us a little bit about the product, like what do you do with some of these things? You can identify it.

Slowing Down and Finding Your Power

Laura: Part of it is slowing things down and looking at like, what is it that you actually want? Like what? Because there's a lot of when you don't have time, particularly when you're a really busy mom and you're working and all the things, you don't have time to actually sit and think.

What do you want? So there are a lot of free associations in your brain, but to actually sit down, identify, well, what is it that you want? What's missing, what's not working, what is working? Just to sort of do an assessment to start with and really look at that and tease some of that apart and then to look at where your power is.

Because a lot of it feels like I don't have a choice, like you were saying earlier. But that's almost never true. Yeah, I say almost never because, yeah, I don't want to. There's probably somebody out there who truly doesn't have a choice. So I don't wanna, you know. But generally speaking, there's choice. And so teasing that out too.

Rebecca: Where is your choice?

Laura: Yep.

Why Every Relationship Needs Renegotiation

Laura: And I'm a big believer in renegotiation. So whether it means renegotiating at work or renegotiating in your relationship.

I actually think all relationships should be renegotiated regularly. We tend to stand up there and say our vows and then say, oh, this is the way it is. And then we just go off for decades. But like I said, there are seasons of life, and I think every season requires renegotiation around who does what and how. And how is this going to play out in our relationship? And we should be checking in with each other.

So we talk about a lot of those things too. And then there's the piece around identity and roles and how you see yourself and, where are you at in terms of that? How do you see yourself with money and where do you want to go?

Because those can be goals. Those are like skills that you can learn and things that you can bring into your life. It doesn't have to be a passive thing of like, maybe I'll get there, maybe I won't.

The Challenge of Dreaming Beyond Current Circumstances

Rebecca: Yeah. That's such a tricky one because I find some of my clients can feel so bogged down. And this is where we come back to the responsibility of all of life.

They can't see past these circumstances. They can't see what the next thing is that they want. And they feel very blocked in their mind from even dreaming about it.

Laura: Yes.

Rebecca: And particularly dreaming about things that feel way outside of their reach at this point and way not logical that they would ever get there, you know?

Laura: Absolutely. We can spend a lot of time on what you don't want. It's like that happens sometimes. All that has to come out first. But don't you want what's not working? Let's talk about all of that. Let's get that down on a piece of paper, let's tease all that out and then we can look at and say, okay, we have a really clear picture of what you don't want.

So what do you want? That's a good way. Sometimes it's looking at those things that are written down and saying, well, if you don't want this, then do you want the opposite?

Why Saying “I Want More Money” Feels Impossible

Rebecca: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's such a great approach to it, I think, just to just go through it some. Through the backward door. Yes, through the backward door. Yeah. We are very in tune with what we don't want. Way more than we're ever in tune with what we actually want.

Laura: For sure. Yes. Yeah. And if you're not actually examining those things, those things can come out in other ways that aren't necessarily healthy. You know, whether it's like binge watching things or staying up too late at night to get me time.

Or we do a lot of things that are somewhat self-sabotaging, because our needs aren't being met. So we attempt to meet them in these other ways.

Rebecca: Right, right. Yeah, I understand. I bet for a lot of women it's really difficult to say I want more money.

Laura: Oh yes.

Rebecca: Like literally those words are foreign to probably many, many women's lips.

Laura: Yes.

“I Don’t Want to Be Seen as Greedy”

Rebecca: Well, I've got a limited sample of course, because people who come to me, money's not going great in their lives, obviously, or they wouldn't come to me. But they generally kind of wish money would just go away. They want it, but they don't want to have to deal with it. So that's a piece of it too.

So actually saying I want more of it, like that's a huge leap.

Rebecca: Yeah. And then of course we know this as coaches, but maybe not the average person knows this. When you start saying that you actually restrict your ability to create more money. Right.

And that's not from a magical perspective, but from an actually quite a protective perspective. Right. When you say you don't want something, your brain closes off any possibility of seeing it out there. You know, whether that's from a billboard saying to a job opportunity, your conscious mind literally won't see it out of protection if you are in a zone of saying no.

Right. And I don't want, and I don't want. And so your brain goes, yeah, let's not look at any of those possibilities and even connect back to that idea of one that's too scary. Right. It's very interesting.

Laura: Absolutely. Yeah. So sometimes just even getting comfortable enough with the idea that actually I do want money, and it's not so much of the money I want the things that money brings, but being able to connect those and say that yeah, this actually is important to me and it's okay that it's important to me.

You're not shallow if you want money.

Rebecca: Right, right. Or vain.

Laura: Or vain. Right. Or greedy. Greedy is a big one that comes up with the women that I work with. It's like I don't want to be seen as greedy.

So I work with people around negotiations. Yeah. Selfish is another one. So when women come to me and they're like, I'm about to negotiate a salary, but I don't want to be seen as greedy or selfish, it's like that's a big one that comes up.

Rebecca: Yeah. How do you start talking through that?

Laura: Well, I let them know that first of all they're not responsible for how other people see them. And secondly, they're not there necessarily to be pleasing, which is—there's the whole people pleaser thing that comes up. So we end up talking about that quite a lot.

And from what I know from working with hiring managers is that they're actually respected more if they negotiate. It's not a matter of being greedy or—I mean, they do look down on women. Especially when you're talking about six-figure salaries.

If someone comes and just accepts the salary, then that's kind of a red flag. Particularly if you're in a position where you're going to be handling money for the company. They want to know that you can negotiate.

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: There are a lot of different angles to it outside of the personal.

Why Women Struggle to See Their Value

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah, for sure. When I talk with women about getting promoted or negotiations, obviously that comes up on occasion and so forth, I always focus back on their value.

We as women don't see our value enough on so many levels—the value that we offer our companies, the value we offer our families, the value we just offer in the world. Like we just don't see our output of value in a way that it should be compensated.

Laura: Yes, absolutely.

Rebecca: Men don't deal with that. Not at all. Everything they do is valuable.

Men vs. Women: Asking for More Money

Laura: And when I've had male clients come to me and they're talking about their work situations and I'm like, maybe you should ask for a raise. They're like, oh, maybe I should. You know, it's not—they're never like, oh, I can't do that.

They might want some help with it. But I've never had a man be like, oh, I could never ask for more money.

Rebecca: Interesting. Yeah.

Laura: But it's frequently what women say.

Rebecca: Yeah. Oh, for sure. They gotta think about that a long time, really uncomfortable, put themselves out there.

Laura: Yes. And part of the process we work through is getting comfortable that it's uncomfortable.

Rebecca: Mmmm.

Laura: It's not going to be comfortable, especially if you've never done it.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Laura: It's like anything else.

Practicing Value Through Everyday Choices

Rebecca: Yeah. And I mean, we're talking about it what feels like a high-stakes situation—though we could probably argue that. But if you have a hard time advocating for yourself or seeing your value in just like being the one that gets to pick dinner and where you're going to go to the restaurant, for example, on a really low stake, then yeah, of course it's going to be really uncomfortable.

We're not going to fix that when things feel a little bit more important. It's just going to be uncomfortable. Maybe, maybe you'll get more comfortable with the uncomfortable, but hard to say.

Laura: No, absolutely. And you just raised a great point too. One of the things I work with a lot with women is starting to know their preferences and assert them.

Start with the small things like, where would you like to go for dinner? What do you want to do on date night on Saturday night? If you haven't had a date night in a long time, how can you have one?

Let your spouse know: Hey, I'd really like to go out. Which date’s best for you? Here are some dates. I'll get the sitter, you make the dinner reservation, whatever.

Because we have a tendency to not be comfortable stating our preferences—or sometimes even knowing what they are. That stuff can get really buried, especially when you're putting kids first.

Rebecca: Yeah. Definitely knowing your preferences. So getting those are little ways, right, to start building towards that and recognizing. I mean, because when you assert your preference, you're stating a value, a worthiness that you deserve to have an opinion. Right. Innate in that, is that right?

Laura: Yes.

Rebecca: So then you just practice it, kind of. It's like a subtle way of practicing that as you build towards very consciously thinking about your value and your worth and all those things. Yeah, I like that.

Laura: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Because we do tend to suppress all of that, you know, to some degree.

Women’s Superpower with Money

Rebecca: Yeah. I'm curious, what do you think our superpower is as women when it comes to managing and creating money? Like what makes us—what's amazing about it?

Laura: This is probably gonna sound odd, but I think women are so much better at managing their emotions than men are.

Rebecca: Yeah, they don't manage their emotions, they suppress them.

Laura: And money is very emotional.

And so generally, in my experience, women can often use the skills that they use every day to manage their emotions to manage money. And so I find that women who don't—they aren't necessarily like we kind of paint women as impulsive when it comes to money and retail therapy and all the shopping and all that kind of stuff.

I do see that sometimes, but I see it more as a symptom than a character flaw as it's painted. And I think that women in general, especially women on the job, when they're managing big budgets and things like that, they're able to do it with really calm, cool heads.

In a way that I just don't see talked about.

Why Women Excel at Work Budgets but Struggle at Home

Rebecca: How do you think we can translate that when it comes to even our personal finances?

Laura: That's a good question because I do have women come to me who manage big budgets at work and then they get… their personal finances are a mess.

And it's interesting. Part of it too is the—what do I want to say? It's the cultural stereotype that women aren't good with money that we tend to sometimes fall into. And I think a part of it is just like we're so trained to see ourselves that way and then that plays out behaviorally.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Laura: And so where at work, it's almost like a separate thing. Like we don't tend to see it as two of the same. We see it as like, oh, that's my job.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Laura: And then at home I'm this person. And so I don't apply those skills here.

Women and Money Management in the Household

Rebecca: Interesting. I grew up with a bunch of women that managed money in the household. I've never even thought about that before. And even like my husband's mom manages the money in their household. I've never thought about the influence that the female women, the females in my life and how that dictated my thoughts about my own management of money.

Laura: Yeah.

Rebecca: But it's true.

Laura: Yeah. You probably see a lot more as being possible for you than a woman who's never seen that.

Rebecca: I mean, I just do it. Like, I mean I am the manager of our money. So I just, I never occurred to me that I maybe wouldn't be.

Laura: Yeah, that's interesting.

Sharing the Emotional and Mental Load of Money

Rebecca: That's just my skill set. You know, I've actually had to like really get my husband involved. And it's been in the last, over the last year that we've had some pretty serious conversations and like, of how to involve him in this.

Like, it's not only to share in it because you're right, it is emotional and that means I actually share a lot of the emotional burden of that for the family and I need help in sharing the mental emotional load of the money.

But—and that was really where it all started—but you also just think about it from like if I went away, like do you know how to access everything? Like would you know how to balance our books if you, you know, if you will that way? Like would you know how to even… where are the passcodes to get into everything?

Like, I don't know, unless you're an active part of this, I can't just tell you once. Like you got to be an active part of this. Otherwise you're going to have some issues should anything happen. And I don't want that for you. I don't want that for the family. So, I mean, there's some very practical elements of it too.

But now that we're really talking about it, like, yeah, I needed somebody to share in the emotion of it. Though I am the executor, generally speaking, of what that looks like for us and the family.

Laura: Yeah, yeah. I've sort of the opposite which is that my dad handles all the money in my parents’ marriage and my mom gets a small allowance. She's gotten one since they got married. They're coming up on their 60th wedding anniversary. She gets a weekly allowance to manage the household.

And I saw that growing up and thought it was terrible and decided when I get married I'm handling the money and I always have.

Old School Money Roles vs. Financial Freedom

Rebecca: Right. What an interesting old school way of doing things.

Laura: Oh yeah. I know. As the only female child in the family, I just thought, no way, I'm—

Rebecca: Never doing that way. Wow. And now let's really talk about freedom. Let's really talk about like the desire for that lack to have total control.

Laura: Yes. Yeah. No, that did not look appealing to me. I did end up being a stay-at-home mom for a short period of time. But I always had an eye on—I am gonna go back to work because I didn't want to be like my mom, who was always in the house and managing this tiny little pot of money.

Women, Investing, and the Discomfort of Spending

Rebecca: Yeaheah. I want to chat a little bit about maybe even investing and the discomfort of spending lots of money. And I want to talk about this because it's obviously a conversation that comes up a lot.

It comes up a lot for me. I assume it comes up a lot for you. Just as women are deciding—or your clients are deciding—if they want to work with you or not, which is a nice chunk of change. Right. A lot of the cards get put on the table at that point.

A lot of the things that are getting actually in the way of you having the life that you want to have, or having the freedom that you want to have, or having the promotion you want to have, come out as you just start talking about actually making an investment.

But I would imagine—and this is the case for a lot of my clients—it's like, maybe I can make that investment if it's easy. Is there a bucket of money somewhere that's not super earmarked for something, that is kind of in a slush fund that isn't gonna make much of an impact on the family? Then maybe.

And we still might have worthiness or selfish conversations, but that feels easier to access. When in reality, most of us don't have that. And we don't live in that kind of zone of putting aside money in some strange account for maybe a time that we want to make a large investment someday and make it really easy for us. Right.

So we actually have to reallocate money and do all the things in order to make it happen. And I have a feeling men actually don't think about that a whole lot as much. They don't tend to think about investing in that way, as like, is it coming from an easy place that is going to go unseen and unnoticed and isn't going to make an impact?

And I'm curious what some of the things you see for women as they talk about investing. Maybe investing in coaching, but investing generally and making big purchases for themselves—or what it might be—and how we tend to think about it, or how we want to move our women towards thinking about it.

Why Women Struggle to Justify Investments in Themselves

Laura: Yeah. What we were talking about earlier about not feeling the value, not feeling our own value, it can be really hard to say, I'm gonna put this chunk of money towards something for myself—whether it's a certification or coaching or whatever.

If we can't justify it somehow, there's that feeling of like, how do I justify this? And even just as a slight aside, when clients are raising rates—I had this conversation this morning with a client who wants to raise her rates and really needs to raise her rates. She's like, how do I justify it? How do I tell the clients?

Like, you don't need to justify it. You're a professional setting your rates. But as women who are investing in ourselves, we can have a really hard time. We want to be able to say, this is what the payoff will be so that we can explain it to somebody else so that they get it.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Laura: And that can be really challenging. And sometimes you just have to… It's helpful if you have something direct that you can say. I try to help my clients make more money. That's usually our goal. And so being able to say that's what we're going to be working on—that can be really helpful.

It doesn't mean it always happens. It depends on how many money blocks there are there. Sometimes it takes a while. But to say, this is the plan, this is what we’re working toward, can be really helpful. But there's always the risk that it won't happen.

And being even able to say like—many clients use these exact words when they come to me—which is, I want to take myself more seriously.

Taking Yourself Seriously with Money

Laura: That's really what they're after. And the money—making more money—is sort of proof that you're taking yourself more seriously.

Rebecca: Yes, yes.

Laura: That doesn't necessarily… I want to take myself more seriously isn’t really something that feels good to anybody else in their lives, but that's what they want. And so sometimes it's just a matter of standing in it.

Rebecca: What does that mean to your clients?

Laura: Just like knowing. Well, people all the time, women in particular, will say, like, I just don't feel like I'm focusing enough on what I want. I'm not focusing enough on my goals because I'm not taking them seriously enough.

Rebecca: I see.

Laura: I'm not asking for enough money in my business because I'm not taking my skills seriously enough.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Laura: Those are the words I hear most often from prospective clients.

Rebecca: Interesting. And so, again, it's like doubling down on the value and the worth. And your goals and your life—your life matters. That it doesn't have to be about its impact on other people. Like, you're enough in it. You know, I talk a lot about enoughness with my clients.

Laura: I do too.

Living in the Land of Enough

Rebecca: Like believing and living in that land of enough. When you believe you are enough, of course everybody else benefits around you. There's a huge impact, a ripple effect that happens because of that.

And even if that didn't happen and you lived alone in a cabin in the woods, like, you still get to live the life that you… just because you breathe, you get to live life the way you want to live. And you get to own that. Right. And that worthiness always.

Laura: Absolutely. And taking yourself seriously can mean really looking at your gifts and how you want to use them, as opposed to always being there for everybody else. It's like, how do you want to actually live in a way that is fulfilling to you and meaningful to you?

And there's of course, a spillover to everybody around you. Who wouldn't want to live with a happier person who has more meaning and joy in their life?

Rebecca: Right, right.

Laura: You know?

Rebecca: Yeah.

Why Investing in Yourself Matters

Laura: And when you put money down on something for that purpose of really looking at yourself and being happier or whatever it is the goal is, then you sort of naturally take it more seriously because you've put money toward it. That's just the way our brains work.

Rebecca: M. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Always. I feel like we could keep talking. We could talk. We talk. There's so much to talk about. I love it. And I love… We did talk a lot about the difference a bit between how men's perspective and women's perspective.

But even then, one of the things that strikes me about something you kind of even almost offhandedly said—and we didn't talk about it, but it strikes me—is like we actually don't need to do it the way men did it. Right.

We don't want to actually live in that box in the way that men handle money, or handle promotions, or handle investing, or handle management, or think about freedom, or whatever. Like, whatever. They get to think about it however they want to think about it.

And we have—we as women and you as an individual—have a unique way of thinking about experiencing the world and money and your purpose and what you do and its impact and all of the things. And you own that. Yes. Don't live in a box that somebody else created, particularly the patriarchy. Let's not do that. Right.

The Way Men Do Things Is Not the Standard

Laura: The way men do things is not the standard. We tend to think of it that way. It is not the standard. It isn't. And in fact, a lot of men could learn things from us.

Rebecca: Of course. Of course.

Laura: Especially when it comes to finances and managing and leadership and all of those things. And one of the reasons I always have a few men on my roster of clients—like I say, I'm primarily a coach for women, but I do have men come to me—is it so informs my work, to be able to work with them and to see where they're at. And also, you know, I love helping them understand the women in their lives.

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. So good. So, so fun to have you on. Laura, thank you for taking the time and for making this happen and talking about this really important topic. I mean, you are necessary in this world.

I mean, we are not going to take the next step as women, as working moms, unless we are unraveling and unmarbling the money stories that we have as women, as a full culture, and so forth. So it's so important. So thank you for the work that you do. Tell the listeners how they can find you, follow you, get in touch with you, tell them all the things.

Where to Find Laura Gates Lupton

Laura: Yep. So I'm on Substack. I have a Substack called Good With Money. Anybody can sign up there. My Monday Money Missives are free to everybody. I do have paid tiers with other benefits, but including a podcast—which you've been a guest on—my Money Memoirs podcast, which is really great.

I also have a separate podcast which is a total freebie, which is called Woman Uncaged. I co-host that with Linda Katz. And we talk about all things feminism, women getting out of the boxes. We're just about to start our third season. So cool. That's really fun. And we're on all the platforms for that one.

Rebecca: Yeah, I love it. Oh, so good. All right, well, we will definitely link to all of that in the show notes.

Ambitious and Balanced: Next Group Coaching Cohort

Rebecca: All right, working moms, till next week. Let's get to it.

Hey, working moms. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. I want to let you know that the next cohort for my group coaching program, Ambitious and Balanced, is starting soon.

If you're looking to make 2025 the year when you not only learn how to create sustainable work-life balance, but you actually put it into practice so that you and your family come first without sacrificing success at your job, then this program is for you.

I'm only taking 10 women into this next cohort, and you're not going to want to miss this opportunity to get started this year. To learn more, you can head to my website, www.rebeccaolsoncoaching.com/ambitiousandbalanced.

This is the year where you feel successful both at work and at home, and I can't wait for you to start. I'll see you next week. And until then, let's get to it.

Rebecca Olson