Follow the show:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | YouTube | Everywhere else
What if the guilt you feel as a working mum isn't actually yours to carry? Rebecca and parenting expert Dr. Laura Froyen explore the stories we've been told about motherhood, career, and what it means to be a "good mum". Together they unpack the research, challenge common beliefs, and share practical ways to parent with more confidence and far less guilt.
In this episode, we unpack:
The difference between true guilt and the guilt you've inherited from society.
What research actually says about working mums and child development.
Why presence matters more than the number of hours you spend with your kids.
How modelling self-care helps your children far more than self-sacrifice.
Simple ways to build stronger connection while balancing career and family.
Work with me:
Join Ambitious & Balanced:
www.rebeccaolsoncoaching.com/ambitiousandbalanced
Book a Work-Life Balance Strategy Call:
www.rebeccaolsoncoaching.com/ambitiousandbalanced-call
Download the Free Daily Kickstart:
www.ambitiousandbalanced.com/daily-kickstart
Connect with Laura:
Website: laurafroyen.com
Podcast: www.laurafroyen.com/podcast
Instagram: www.instagram.com/laurafroyenphd
Transcript
If push came to shove, like, if it really came down to it, we would choose our family every time, no hesitation.
I mean, we're here on this podcast. We're talking about building a life where your career and your kids both get to win. And I mean that. I believe that can be for you.
But underneath all of that ambition, there's still a hierarchy that none of us are confused about. It's our kids.
So then why do we feel so guilty all the time?
That's the question I couldn't stop turning over. Because if we're clear on what matters most, where's all this guilt coming from? And is it telling us something true? Or did we just sort of inherit that from somewhere?
Today, I'm sitting down with Dr. Laura Froyen, Ph.D. in Human Development, former family therapist and host of the Balanced Parent Podcast.
Her whole thing is dropping the stories about what a good parent does and figuring out what actually works for your family.
In this interview, we got into true guilt versus borrowed guilt, what kids actually need from us and how much time that really takes, and whether going after your career is quietly hurting your kid's future.
If you've ever done the math on how many hours you actually saw your kid this week, then this one's for you.
Are you ready? Let's get to it.
Welcome to the Ambitious and Balanced Working Moms podcast, your go to resource for integrating your career ambitions with life as a mom, I'm distilling down thousands of coaching conversations I've had with working moms just like you, along with my own personal experience as a mom of two and sharing the most effective tools and strategies to help you quickly feel calm, confident, and in control of your ambitious working mom life. You ready? Let's get to it.
Rebecca: Well, hello, working moms. I'm very delighted to have a special guest with us on the podcast today.
I've never had a parenting coach, somebody who is an expert in talking about parenting specifically. Obviously, it's something that I talk a lot about with all of you and with my clients, but it's so fun to have somebody who really has an expertise in this and has a different angle to talk about these things.
So I'm just so excited to welcome Laura to the podcast. Thanks for being here.
Laura: Hi. I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me, Rebecca.
Rebecca: Yes, yes. Please tell us a little bit about yourself.
Conscious Parenting Starts with the Relationship You Have with Yourself
Laura: Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm Laura Froyen. I have a PhD in Human Development and Family Studies and a specialization in Marriage and Family Therapy, which is, ah, lots of words to just say that I love families.
I love understanding how family systems work together. I am deeply invested in supporting parents, so I help parents from all over the world have more conscious and respectful relationships with themselves, with their partners, and with their kids.
So I teach conscious and respectful parenting, but a lot of the work of that type of parenting really is inner work—learning how to have a better and more healthy relationship with yourself, a more compassionate relationship with yourself, so that you can then reflect that back to your kids.
Rebecca: Yeah, yeah, I was gonna say tell us how you define that. So just in case people aren't really aware, but I think you just gave us a good kind of summary. Is there more you would say?
Respectful Parenting vs. Gentle Parenting: What's the Difference?
Laura: I mean, so, like, respectful parenting—you know, there are just lots of buzzwords out there, right? So there's gentle parenting, which is not an approach that I super align with, just because I think that, in the popular teachings, you know, when we see it on social media, it can lean more towards permissiveness. And then people say it doesn't work because permissiveness doesn't work.
Respectful parenting really, at its core, is respecting the dignity and personhood of all beings right from the very beginning and treating children with respect. While holding them to the standard of you also being worthy of being treated with dignity and respect. And so there's this beautiful balance of high expectations, crystal-clear expectations that are delivered with warmth and love, and an understanding of a child's developmental stage and what's appropriate in terms of our expectations.
And then conscious parenting is this other thing that's really about deeply examining our ideas, the lens through which we view children, or view ourselves, or view situations and really coming into awareness that, most of the time, our beautiful brain is striving for efficiency and is working on autopilot. And there's lots of stories and lots of ideas and stuff happening in the background.
And conscious parenting is about getting off of autopilot and coming into the here and now with your kids, with yourself, so you can actually make choices that align with yourself, with your goals, with your vision for your family, with your values.
Rebecca: Yeah, yeah.
Laura: As opposed to just saying, like, we sit at the dinner table for dinner because that's what people do. Really examining, like, actually, why are we sitting down for dinner every night? Why is that important to us? Does it have to be at a table? Does it... do you know what I mean? Like, really examining.
Rebecca: Does it have to be home cooked? Does it have to be Right. All of the things.
Laura: All of the things. Really, like making conscious choices that are intentional and reflective. Your goals and your hopes and your dreams and your values.
The Pressure of Being an Ambitious Working Mum in Today's World
Rebecca: Yeah, I think there's so much value in that. And particularly for listeners who listen to this podcast, you know, they sort of self-identify, obviously, as being ambitious. That's part of the title.
But, you know, other ways of saying that are career-focused, career-driven, goal-focused, kind of Type A. Those tend to be the type of people, right?
And I think, you know, unfortunately, there is no—as we all know—manual to parenthood. And we all sort of wish that on some level. And actually, I think at the end of the day, we probably don't. I mean, that's a whole... it would make things easier and more efficient, for sure. But probably we don't, at the end of the day.
However, I think one of the challenges I see over and over again is that we all sort of live with stories, cultural norms, societal expectations, things like that, of what family means and what it means to be a "good mom."
And then, when it comes to actually living into that, when you're an ambitious person and you're career-driven, we can't meet those expectations because typically it means spend more time with your kids and self-sacrifice everything on their behalf. And obviously, that doesn't work for us.
So I'm curious. I mean, those are really important conversations to have. I'm curious how you start to navigate some of that with your clients.
Laura: Yeah. So, you know, a lot of my clients come to me because they're deeply invested in getting parenting right, right? So,
Rebecca: Give me the manual.
Laura: Right, yeah, the manual. Many of them are Type A. Many of them see parenting as one of the big things that they're going to do with their lives, right? And so there's ambition when it comes to that too. Lots of parents are trying to undo generations of trauma in their families. Lots of parents are trying to do things differently than how it was done for them.
The First Step to Better Parenting: Question the Stories You've Been Told
And I think, across the board, a lot of the work is really coming home to yourself. Really learning to say, "Okay, so is that true? Do I have to do it that way? Is that true? Where did I learn that? Where did that idea come from? And does it actually jive with... does it actually serve me? Does it actually fit with what I know to be true? True for myself, true for my kids?"
You know, it's funny. What we do is not easy. It's not easy to put this into a 15-second sound bite on social media because it's nuanced and it's individual.
Rebecca: Totally, totally. Do you, I'm really just curious that's popped in my head. Do you have like a personal kind of definition for yourself or one that you see commonly for your own clients as you start to dig into some sort of like, what does good mean to me?
What Does Being a "Good Mom" Actually Mean?
Laura: Yeah, I mean, so that's part of my work with parents, is defining that individually. So how will we know when we've been successful? Right? So what does that even mean to us?
So for me personally, with my kids, you know, I have long-term goals. You know, so like when they're 20 or 30, they want to call me, they want to hang out with me, they trust me with their kids. They want to have good, authentic relationships where we can handle the ups and downs, we can have a disagreement, see things differently, and we still respect each other.
You know, I have those long-term visions. On a day-to-day basis, I want to feel peaceful in my home. I want to feel like we're connecting in some way that's meaningful for each kid each day. You know, that doesn't have to look how, in my home, it would look in your home, right?
So for some people, we think, like, gosh, we've got to read to our kids every night before bed and do this bedtime routine. That might not be exactly how that individual child needs to be connected with. Maybe their bedtime connection point before they go to sleep needs to look different, you know? And so, like, it's just very individual.
So yes, there's this process of picking out, what does being a good mom mean to me? Just like I'm sure with your clients, you go through that process of what does success mean to me? You know, it's a very similar process, just with the family.
Why Working Mums Feel So Much Guilt
Rebecca: And it needs to be somewhat holistic. I mean, I think that's where, for us as working moms, it's important that our definition feels like it fits into the life that we want. It's realistic, right? Because when we become working moms, you know, our goals really shift. It's not just about career. It's also about feeling like you're showing up as a parent in the way that you want, because if you don't, then it feels like everything is failing, right?
And so, truly, at the end of the day, if you were absolutely 100% forced to pick between your family and your career, we know that all of us would pick our family if we absolutely had to, whatever that extreme situation would be. However, that isn't, generally speaking, where we're at in life. We get to have both. And so, how do we navigate both? You know, how do we navigate both well? And what does it even mean to do both well?
It's such an important space to step back and put some definition to.
I want to steer us, though, in another direction because I think this is where a lot of guilt comes in for working moms. Obviously, I talk about guilt a lot, and I have my own kind of thoughts on guilt. But I'm curious—for you, what are some of your thoughts on how we start to frame up mom guilt and what that means? What does it look like?
True Guilt vs. Borrowed Guilt
Laura: Yeah, yeah. So one of the things that I talk about with my clients, and in my membership a lot actually, because the guilt comes up—we all feel it—is really differentiating between true guilt and borrowed guilt.
True guilt is when you've taken an action that doesn't align with your core values, right? Where you've intentionally done something that doesn't align with those core values, which you believe to be good and true and just. And borrowed guilt tends to be where you have done something that maybe does align with your values, but doesn't necessarily align with someone else's values—someone else's "shoulds" that they've put on you.
Are You Living by Your Values or Someone Else's Expectations?
And so, if you're feeling that sense of guilt, you have to take a look at yourself and really think about, okay, so is this a moment where I've stepped outside of my values, or am I actually living in my values and I need to do some work on how other people's values, or obligations, or their thoughts on what I should be doing are seeping in?
And then what do I have to do with that? You know, how do I help myself understand that better or differently? How do I have boundaries with myself psychologically, like mentally, to keep those from coming in? How do I treat myself gently and with compassion?
Because we do live in the world, right? We live in the world. We hear all of these messages. We have mothers-in-law who think things about us, or neighbors down the street who are doing things differently. And that noise can come in, and it can be really loud, right? And it's hard.
So there's a piece of protecting ourselves from it, being kind to ourselves in the midst of it, and then being really honest with ourselves around, like, if this is a moment where I'm feeling guilty because I actually am doing something that doesn't feel aligned, then what does that shift need to be? You know, so that I can be more in alignment and feel good about my choices. Do you know?
Rebecca: Yeah, yeah.
Laura: I don't know if that is helpful at all.
The Guilt of Leaving Your Child at Daycare
Rebecca: No, I think that's a really interesting way of thinking about it. I remember when I had my daughter—she's 11, turning 12—and I felt what seemed like a true, deep guilt for leaving her at daycare. It was just, I am sending my child off to be raised by somebody else, right?
She was an amazing, wonderful sleeper. Love that for her, and for us, in so many ways. But literally, I would spend about an hour with her most days because she would go to sleep at, like, 5:45. Which is amazing, you know, but not for me, who didn't spend any time with her, you know.
Laura: That must have been really hard Rebecca.
Rebecca: It was really, really hard. And I didn't—I mean, it took a lot for me to... I was so confused. You know, it's so confusing to come up with, like, am I really... to your point, is this really guilt? Am I really doing something that doesn't feel aligned, or am I feeling guilty because society tells me that I shouldn't be dropping my child off at daycare, and that somebody else is raising them, and there's a problem with that? You know, I don't know. And then what piece of that is guilt, and what piece of that is just pure sadness? Because that's different too.
Laura: Different too, yeah.
Rebecca: It's okay to, you know, it was okay for me to feel... feel anything, really. But it felt legitimate to feel sad that that was the circumstance at the time. But that's also very different than guilt. And having to differentiate between those two was really challenging during that time.
Laura: Yeah, yeah. I mean, and so, you know, I guarantee you're not the only person listening who felt that way.
Rebecca: Oh my gosh. I know that.
What the Research Says About Daycare and Child Development
Laura: And there are, you know, there are moms who are listening right now who are literally in that place right now too.
And, you know, the research is overwhelming that if your child is in high-quality care, parents continue to be the most impactful influence on kids' development, even if they're in full-time daycare. So even in that amount of time that you're at home with them, you're still the most important person in their lives.
And the other interesting thing is, you know, attachment science continues to grow, and our understanding of babies continues to improve. Human beings are not supposed to do this alone, right? So this is why moms are told, "Find your village." We hear this all the time.
But literally, children are biologically programmed to form four primary attachments. So many babies are kind of artificially growing up with only two caregivers. Human babies are intense babies. They have a very long infancy, a very long sensitive period when they need a lot. But they're meant to be raised by more than just two adults.
And so there's this piece of it too that, you know, when it comes to a place like daycare, they will form relationships that can be robust and really healthy and, ultimately, are good for them over time.
Rebecca: Yeah, so hold on. I want to just park on that. I want to make sure everybody heard that. Your child is not meant to just attach to you and your partner, if you have one, right? Your child ideally has four humans, four adults, loving, trusted adults that they've attached themselves to in infancy. That's the healthiest thing for them.
Laura: It's wonderful for them to have.
Rebecca: Why is that actually?
Children Are Biologically Wired to Be Raised by a Village
Laura: I mean, because they're vulnerable beings, right? They're very vulnerable beings.
I mean, you think about how humans were as a species when we were kind of coming to be. We would be in vulnerable situations. Humans had babies near the same time. Mothers shared care while they were out, you know, doing things. They would nurse other people's babies. Like, biologically, we're just designed to help each other out.
And, you know, culturally, it's very modern, very recent, and very Western for us to live in single-family homes, right? For us to not live in multigenerational homes.
The human animal that a baby is, is expecting to be in a place where there's more than two adults to care for it, because it's a very intense…
Rebecca: Season of it’s life.
Laura: Yeah, it just is. They're just needy infants. There are very few other mammals that come out into the world with such a prolonged infancy and period of development where they are vulnerable and need a lot of support.
The Moment Rebecca’s Perspective on Daycare Completely Changed
Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. I have certainly told this story on the podcast before, but there was a moment that shifted for me when she was a little bit older. I don't remember how old, but I'm going to say somewhere in the 13- to 15-month range.
I was changing her diaper at home, and she, like, mooed or something. She did an animal noise of some kind. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't know she could do that." I remember I ran to my husband. I'm like, "Did you know that she can moo like a cow?" And he was like, "No." And I was like, "Did you teach her that?" I was like, "I didn't teach her that." And he's like, "No, I didn't even know."
And then it was like, oh my gosh, she's learning things and being influenced by these beautiful caregivers at the daycare she's at in a way that I didn't even know that I could be developing in her.
It was like a light switch. The guilt immediately went away because I had this completely different perspective, all of a sudden, of what she gained from that experience. And it changed everything for me in that moment.
The Power of Mindset: You Get to Choose the Meaning
Laura: Rebecca, I just want to highlight too, just for the listener, and maybe even for you—you know, Rebecca from 10 years ago—not everybody would have that experience, right?
And so that's the power of your mindset, right? That's the power of really carefully interpreting things. Because another person could see that and be like, "Oh my God, she's learning things without me." As opposed to seeing it as, "Oh my God, she's learning things without me."
There are multiple ways to see every situation, right? There are multiple ways to interpret them. And your beautiful, powerful brain allowed you to see that for the gift that it was—for your child and for you—and allowed that guilt to melt off.
But that is also something that, for the person who's listening, they can choose. You can actively choose that interpretation. Do you know what I mean?
Rebecca's Mindset Shift Changed More Than Her Guilt
Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. Because it's really powerful. It's really, really powerful. I mean, it really was what felt like an instantaneous shift. I remember it so vividly, and all of a sudden dropping her off felt different. My whole experience of it felt different.
Now, that doesn't mean that I still didn't feel sad. I still really longed to be with her, longed to be with her more. And ultimately, it's why I left that job and made other choices because it was not aligned with the bigger vision of what I wanted. But those choices were different, you know? They felt very empowered because of the work I had done to decide and cast a vision over my values, who I wanted to be as a parent, how I wanted that to fold into my career, and all of the various things that came with that.
Why Self-Care Feels So Hard for Ambitious Working Mums
But I'm wanting to shift again and think a little bit about another area that I think is really challenging for ambitious women, and that's self-care and me time.
It's one thing to feel like, I mean, you've got to work, right? The family needs the money. You can potentially justify the way you feel and the fact that you're away for eight to ten hours a day doing work. But then you're supposed to be home and be with your kids. That's what you're supposed to do.
So me time or self-care is by far the number one thing that falls off the schedule because we're supposed to be with our kids.
I'll never forget a client I worked with. She just wanted to work out on a Saturday morning without her three young kids. She felt so guilty for having to leave them once again to go do this thing for herself. Then she felt guilty that she was leaving three kids who were all under the age of three—they were really young—with her husband. She was like, "They're a handful." And then, "I'm making him take care of them."
She just couldn't... you know, it was really challenging to get over this. And I think that's really common for women.
Laura: I think so too.
Rebecca: When they have young kids to be able to, to move through that. so yeah, I just want to open up a conversation around some of that.
What Are Your Kids Gaining When You Prioritise Yourself?
Laura: I want... I'm curious. You know, in those scenarios, it's so easy to look at what you would be missing out on, what the kids are missing out on if you go and do this self-care thing.
I feel really curious what a listener or a client in this situation would be able to list as what their child is gaining by seeing their mom do those things. Our brains are always looking for what's lacking, what's missing, you know, because the brain is trained to look for threats, not necessarily tasked very often to look for the positives. But it can learn to do that, right?
So make a list of what your kids will gain by seeing their mom go to that Saturday morning yoga class and carve that time out.
The Childhood Lesson That Made Self-Care Feel Normal
I'll tell you a funny story from my childhood. I don't know that my mom intended to do this, but she taught me very clearly how important self-care was through modelling as a mom.
She was a teacher. She worked hard. My dad had three jobs, so he was working really hard. She would get a magazine once a month, and when it came, she would play a game with us where she pretended she was in Australia. This was the '80s—there was no international phone calling, right?
So she would say, "Okay, I'm in Australia. You cannot talk to me. If you need something, you can write me a postcard, and it'll get here in a week."
She would lie down on the couch in the middle of the house and read her magazine, and no one was allowed to talk to her. Very clear boundary. She made it playful when we were little, but she used that boundary in a lot of different ways when she really needed no one to talk to her.
That was something that, for her, was self-care. Solitude and peace were really important to her. She needed it. She made it playful. She made it fun. But she taught me very, very clearly from a young age that it is okay to carve out time for myself. That it is okay to have interests that are my own, that have nothing to do with my kids.
Model the Life You Hope Your Children Will Live
It was a beautiful thing that I had modelled for me that I didn't then have to go learn as a parent, right?
One of the things that we can think about ourselves doing is rescuing our kids from having to learn this painful lesson in the future by modelling this now. Because it is painful. It's a painful lesson to learn that, "Hey, wait a second. I matter myself as a woman."
I've been a woman for years, and I will continue to be a woman for years. I'll always be a mom now too, but I will be myself. We get them for a short amount of time, and then there will be this other time. I don't want to have to re-meet myself after they're gone. I want to stay connected to myself while I'm here. It's just a very powerful lesson to model for our kids.
Rebecca: Yeah. And I'd probably even go further and say, like, for our daughters. I hate to be that, you know, binary on some level, but I can't tell you how many moms I talk to say, "You know, my husband doesn't struggle with this."
Laura: He does not.
Rebecca: He goes and he checks out. Like, he literally is like, "I'm going golfing," or "I'm disappearing to do something," and I'm over here slaving away. And then, you know, we can get into this whole relational dynamic.
But we've conditioned men very differently. And so the modelling that we can do for our daughters specifically—or, if you're a boy mom, the fact that you're modelling that for them and their partners potentially in the future—all of that matters.
Laura: And even modeling the discussion of, you know. So my husband is a golfer. Right.
Rebecca: So is mine, and golf takes up all day.
Laura: It's all day!
Rebecca: All day.
Laura: Yes, all day. We live in Wisconsin too, and he's an ice fisherman in the winter, also all day thing!
Rebecca: All day!
Model the Partnership You Want Your Children to Build
Laura: Right. So, like, modelling the conversation of, "Okay, so you're going golfing. I'm so glad you're doing that. I'm so glad you got a tee time. It's wonderful for you. And tomorrow I'm doing X, Y, and Z. Tomorrow I'm going thrifting with my friends. Tomorrow I'm taking an art class." You know, whatever it is for you.
Model that conversation between parents in front of your kids. "Alright, kiddos, Daddy's going golfing today, and tomorrow Mommy has her art class." Model that negotiation.
My husband has been very busy this summer. He hasn't gotten on the golf course, and that's not good for him. That's not good physically for him. That's not good for his mental health. So having my kids hear me say, "Dad, you haven't golfed. I haven't seen you go golfing in weeks. You have to get out there this week. How can we make that happen?" means they're seeing that I'm guarding his time so he can have that.
And he does the same thing for me. "I haven't seen you do your art in a while. How can we make that happen?" Those are really good things to model in terms of partnership for your kids too.
Are Children Better Off with a Stay-at-Home Mum or a Working Mum?
Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So good. I actually have no idea what you're going to say to this next question, so I'm really curious. This is one of the things that's coming up because we're talking about shifting societal expectations. We've talked about that with guilt, and we've talked about that with self-care.
I think there's another belief on some level—that kids raised by a working mom... it's just not as good as being raised by a stay-at-home mom.
I'm curious because I think there's definitely a subset of listeners and clients who have to wrestle with this. There are a lot of women who were raised by stay-at-home moms who don't want to be stay-at-home moms themselves. They want to be working moms, but then there's this immense breakdown of, What does it mean to be a good mom?
I'm really curious, from a statistical standpoint or a research standpoint, if you have any sort of data—whether it's specific numbers or just thoughts around that.
Laura: Oh gosh, I feel like I should have done my, my Google Scholar search on this beforehand.
Rebecca: That's okay.
What the Research Really Says About Working Mums and Child Development
Laura: I don't, off the top of my head, have any hard data. I do know that, in general, when we think about child development research and psychological research, we're talking about generalities, right? We're talking about, on average, this is what the research tells us. On average, this is what we've found.
Usually, when we're looking at child outcomes, as long as we're thinking about high-quality care, both at home and in care settings or school, there's very little statistical difference between children who have had working parents and have been in care versus children who were raised at home. Statistically, you usually can't tell the difference between those kids if you don't already know.
What the research does tell us, over and over again, is that no matter how much time your children spend in care or at school, parents are still the most important and influential adults in a child's life—for good or for ill.
Sometimes a high-quality care situation can buffer a less-than-ideal parenting situation for a child. But, over and over again, the research tells us that parents matter more than what's happening during the hours a child is in care or at school.
To me, that says we matter, and we're important, no matter what our family structure looks like. I also think it's important to remember that, historically, having a stay-at-home parent is actually a very new concept. I think about my mom, who grew up on a farm in northern Iowa. Did her mom have a job outside the home? No. But her mom was absolutely a working mom. A farmer's wife is a working mom.
Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah.
Laura: So the privilege that comes with having a stay-at-home mom... it's actually very recent. It really makes you wonder, where did we get this idea?
Rebecca: Yeah.
Laura: I also think there's a little bit of classism that comes into this idea too.
Rebecca: Sure. Sure.
Laura: Yeah, I don't know. When you look at human history, it's a very recent phenomenon.
Rebecca: Yeah, it's true. It's true when you think about it that way. The thing that comes to mind is the 1950s, right? And that really wasn't all that long ago. It wasn't that long ago in the context of human history.
Laura: In terms of how long humans have been on this planet, right, it was a very small amount of time ago. Humans have been thriving for a long time.
Rebecca: So if it really is the parent who has the biggest impact on the kids, then what would you say parents should be working on to develop themselves and raise the kind of humans they want to raise?
The Greatest Gift You Can Give Your Child Is Your Presence
Laura: So when you are home, be home. Be present. Unplug to the extent that you can, and find ways to be fully present with the child who's in front of you—with who they are, not who you think they should be, and not the way you thought it was supposed to be.
If you loved playing catch with your dad on the weekends, but you end up with kids who don't want to play catch with you, you're going to have to find something else to do that's your version of catch. Be present. Be with them. Get to know them.
Connection Starts by Caring About What Your Child Cares About
Rebecca: On a side note of that, my son, who's 9, is really into a computer game that he's recently found, and we're kind of just venturing into the video game side of things. I have a love-hate relationship with it—more love than hate in this case—so there are a lot of restrictions and things, but we're kind of dipping our toe in and seeing what happens.
He's somewhat obsessed with talking about it, though. He's such a morning person. He'll come into my room while I'm barely awake and be like, "Mom, let me tell you about how my game went yesterday."
And I'm like, "Yeah, buddy, tell me. I want to hear all about it. Tell me all about it."
Then he goes on a five-minute explanation.Wow. That's super interesting. I have zero interest in this. Zero interest. Every part of me is like, I hate that my son is talking about this right now. But it's what he's interested in.
So I care more about listening, asking questions, and saying, "Tell me more." Because I know he feels connected when I do that. And that matters more to me than whether I'm interested in the topic.
Connection Matters More Than Shared Interests
Laura: He feels seen and heard and valued. Yes, yes. So, yes, there are absolutely times when we're just going to have to suck it up and play Legos when we don't want to, when Legos are not our thing, or do the thing we wouldn't naturally choose.
There's also room for finding shared interests with your kids.
I'm an artist, and one of my kids is definitely an artist, so we find that shared time together while we're doing art. My other kid... that's not something that's as easy to slip into with her.
Instead, we volunteer at the Humane Society together. That is our time where I really pour into her, and she feels seen and heard and valued.
So you don't have to have everything in common with your kids, and not everything has to be you coming to them. You can also find a place where you connect together, where you have that little bit of shared interest.
I don't know that I would have ever thought to volunteer at a Humane Society, but I've loved volunteering my whole life.
Rebecca: I love that.
Laura: It feels really good pouring into my community alongside my daughter who's passionate about animals and their welfare.
Rebecca: I love it.
Finding Simple Ways to Connect While Taking Care of Yourself
Laura: So just find those things and get creative. Honestly, for me, I've also loved stacking my self-care with those moments. If I need to get out and move my body, going for a bike ride with my kids feels so lovely.
If I need to do some art, I'll get my art supplies out and make sure my kid-friendly art supplies are right next to me because one of my kids will definitely just float over to me. Then we're connecting, and I'm still getting my self-care. Do you know what I mean? Finding those kinds of opportunities is so important.
Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. Things don't have to be totally boxed.
Laura: They don’t.
Rebecca: There can be a blend between those things to make the time happen. So, so good.
Sometimes the Best Family Time Comes from Doing Less
Laura: The other thing, too, is that when both parents are working outside the home and you feel like you have such a small amount of time together, there's always a lot to do.
My husband's a professor, I'm working, and I've found it really helpful to intentionally plan for days where we have nothing to do. We're not overscheduled, the kids aren't overscheduled with activities, and we're not constantly saying, "Okay, unload the dishwasher. Put away your laundry."
I know there's always something that needs to get done, but finding at least one day a week where, in the evening, we've got nothing on the schedule—we can just chill, we can play Pokémon, watch a show, you know, whatever it is.
Maybe it's normally my kids' job to unload the dishwasher, but I don't want to have to be a taskmaster all the time. So I'm going to do that today so we can have that done. You can load the dishwasher after dinner, and then we can spend some time together instead of always doing all the things.
That's balance, right? That's what balance is. And teaching that to your kids by saying, "You know what? Morning Laura might be mad at me, but evening Laura needs a break." So I'm not going to fully clean the kitchen. Instead, I'm going to sit down and snuggle with you while you're reading your manga book to me. You know what I mean?
Rebecca: Totally.
Laura: Finding places where that can happen too.
Rebecca: Yeah, I love it. So coming back to the question which was really like if we know that the really the two parents are the most influential people…
Laura: Oh right, that was our question.
Your Children Don't Need Hours of Attention—They Need Your Full Presence
Rebecca: That was the original question, wasn't it? The influential piece of raising good humans. We know presence is really important. Really, truly giving them your presence and unplugging. That does not mean—let me just be clear—when I start talking to my clients and I'll ask, "What's your kid-focused time?" they'll say, "Well, from 5:00 p.m. until 9:00 p.m. when they go to sleep."
I'm like, "No, no, no. You are not focused on your kids for four hours."
There is a very small fraction of that time where you are literally giving them your undivided attention and your presence.
But they do need that time. It doesn't have to be a long period of time. It could be just 10 minutes.
Laura: 10 minutes a day per kid.
Raise the Person You Hope They'll Become by Modelling It Yourself
Rebecca: Otherwise, what you're doing is actually making dinner and cleaning up the house, and they're in your presence, but you're not present with them, right?
So, just to be clear, as we talk about this, they need some undivided attention. They also need to know that you're interested in them. So finding connection through the things they're interested in is really important.
And, more than anything else, model what you want for them as they get older—whether that's self-care, looking after their health, following their own interests, or whatever it might be. That's another really important piece of raising good humans. I mean, I'm sure we could keep going and going on this.
Connection Matters, but So Do Boundaries and Follow-Through
Laura: They also need boundaries, right? They need rules and expectations that you're going to follow through on.
I think that's something that can be missed in a conversation like this because it all sounds like, "Oh, that's great." But when we say, "You can watch one show," and it bleeds into a third show because we didn't follow through, we're teaching something there about follow-through. So having a relationship with boundaries and expectations, and teaching them...
Rebecca: Remember, that's all about you too. If you don't know how to turn off the show for yourself after the third episode—or the endless scrolling—you're going to have a really hard time putting that boundary in place for your children as well.
Laura: Absolutely. Yes. Absolutely.
Rebecca: Which comes back to one of the very first things you said around conscious parenting. Being conscious of yourself, what matters to you, your values, and how that is then modelled out.
Laura: And it all informs everything. So really learning to come home to yourself.
Rebecca: Yeah, I love that. I feel like we could keep talking and talking and talking. There's so much good stuff here. I wanted to get into a whole screen-time conversation, but we just don't have time, unfortunately. So maybe you're going to have to come back, and we'll talk about that.
Laura: Sure, yeah, happy to.
Where to Connect with Laura Froyen and Continue the Conversation
Rebecca: How can people connect with you and follow you if they want to take that next step?
Laura: Yeah! I have a podcast called The Balanced Parent, where we talk about respectful, conscious parenting and relationships.
Rebecca: I was on that!
Laura: Yes, you were! A beautiful guest. Then my website is laurafroyen.com, and I also have a membership where we get together and hang out. Most of my members are navigating life with at least one spirited or neuro-spicy child, so if you've got one of those intense kiddos, come join us. You'll be in good company.
Rebecca: So good. We'll put all of those links in the show notes as well.
Thank you, Laura, for being here. It's been such a pleasure to have you and to pick your brain a little bit because, at the end of the day, we choose our families. That's really what this is all about.
We want to equip you, our listeners, to do that well and to feel like you can truly have both. That's what we're all about here—being ambitious and balanced at the same time. So thank you again.
Laura: Yes, of course.
Rebecca: Alright, working mums, until next week, let's get to it.
Start Your Day with More Calm, Focus, and Confidence
If you wake up most days spinning with a hundred different priorities vying for your attention, then the Daily Kickstart is exactly what you need.
It's a simple, six-step process that helps you get your thoughts out of your head, reset your mindset, and refocus on what actually matters.
It's designed to help shift you out of overwhelm and into calm, confident action before the chaos hits.
This daily practice is the same tool I offer to all my clients, and it's going to show you exactly how to lead your day instead of react to it. It takes just 10 minutes a day, and the impact will ripple through everything, your mood, your energy, your presence with your kids, and how you lead at work.
My clients indicate time and time again that this tool was the one that made the biggest difference for them. And I'm offering it to you totally free.
You can download it by going to www.ambitiousandbalanced.com/daily-kickstart. And of course, I'll have that for you in the show notes as well. All right, working moms, let's get to it.