How to Stop People Pleasing as a Working Mom (with Michelle Gauthier)

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Have you ever said yes… and instantly felt that pit in your stomach? In this conversation, I sit down with Michelle Gauthier to unpack how people pleasing quietly fuels overwhelm, steals your time, and keeps you stuck in a cycle of overcommitment. We get real about why ambitious women default to yes, how it impacts your success, and the simple “love and fit” tool that helps you finally make decisions that actually align with the life you want. If you’ve been feeling stretched thin, this one will hit home.  

In this episode, we unpack:

  • Why people pleasing is at the root of overwhelm for so many working moms 

  • The hidden cost of saying yes when you actually mean no 

  • A simple 2-question “love and fit” test to make aligned decisions 

  • Why saying no actually leads to more success, trust, and confidence 

  • How to stop over-apologizing and communicate with clarity and intention  

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Transcript

Have you ever said yes and immediately experienced that sort of, like, drop in your stomach? Like, maybe I should have said no?

In this episode, I sit down with working mom coach Michelle Gauthier to talk about the hidden cost of people pleasing and why it's quietly stealing your time, your energy, and even your success.

We break down why saying yes feels easier in the moment, but has been keeping you overwhelmed long term. And Michelle shares a very simple, practical tool called love and fit that will completely change how you decide what stays on your plate and what doesn't.

If you're ready to stop over committing, stop over explaining, and finally say no without any guilt, you need to hear this conversation.

Are you ready? Let's get to it.

Welcome to the Ambitious and Balanced Working Moms podcast, your go to resource for integrating your career ambitions with life as a mom, I'm distilling down thousands of coaching conversations I've had with working moms just like you, along with my own personal experience as a mom of two and sharing the most effective tools and strategies to help you quickly feel calm, confident, and in control of your ambitious working mom life. You ready? Let's get to it.

Rebecca: All right. Well, hello, hello, working moms. I'm excited today. I have a friend coming on the podcast. This is Michelle Gauthier.

And we've known each other—we were just figuring it out—for six years. And she's also a coach and coaches working moms in a very similar way to me. So I'm going to have her introduce herself here, and I'm excited to have her on the podcast.

So thanks for being here, Michelle.

Michelle: Yeah, thanks for having me. I think it's so much fun. You are the only friend who I know who really coaches a very similar audience. So it's always fun to, like, collaborate with you and do things with you. I love that.

So, like I said, I'm Michelle. I am a coach for overwhelmed working women, and I help people just create lives that feel more calm and safe, simple. And, I—yeah, I'm going to leave it at that.

Rebecca: Okay. And you've got two kiddos yourself. They're a little older than mine, if I don't remember how old they are.

Michelle: Yes, they are. Okay, I can say that. I'll say some more personal things. So the reason why I started coaching overwhelmed working moms is because I was one for a while and I didn't know what to do about it. As I was listening to your podcast earlier this morning, Rebecca, I was like, wow, I wish I would have had this podcast when I first had kids. Like, it's so good and there's so much, so much that can be helped. But I was just feeling really overwhelmed with the whole thing.

Now my kids are 15 and 18, and I've been doing this for about eight years. So, like half their childhood, I was working in a corporate job, and the other half I've been working as a life coach.

And having teenagers is really interesting. I feel like I reached a whole different level of parenting. And that's sort of how parenting is, in my opinion, right? When you nail it with, like, the toddler stage, then they become elementary age, and then there's middle school, and now I've got two in high school. 

So it's always changing and learning. But the more I know these tools that we use, the easier it can be.

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah, no doubt about it, no doubt about it. So, yeah, you're definitely a little ahead of me. And I think for probably a lot of listeners here, they still probably have a little bit on the younger side. Elementary age is my—is my—is the usual demographic.

So it's fun to start talking about, you know, what's to come, though. I always appreciate when I'm talking to people, other moms that have older kids. It gives me a glimpse into the world I'm about to enter, you know, which is always very fun in a lot of ways.

Michelle: It is very fun. I remember my sister-in-law called me a couple years ago on a Saturday, and she's like, what are you doing? I was like, I was just taking a nap. She's like, what are your kids doing? I'm like, I don't know.

Oh my gosh, am I going to get to that stage where I can take a nap in the middle of the day and I don't even have to know what my kids are doing? I was like, yes, indeed you do. So it's very fun that way. You can have, you know, real conversations with them and do things with them that you enjoy doing instead of being like, okay, we'll go do, you know, some kind of kid thing.

Rebecca: Go to the park, I guess.

Michelle: Yeah, it's a great phase, and there's a lot of, you know, challenges too with trying to raise good humans.

The Same Tools, Different Season: What’s In Your Control as Kids Grow

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is actually—this is totally off topic of what we're even going to talk about today—but you were talking about, like, tools that you wish you had and now that you have, I mean, have you… do you realize—or how do I want to say this—have you recognized that the tools are actually the same as your kids have gotten older, or have they actually had to shift for you as they've gotten older? Is, like, the principle still there? Like, I'm curious.

Michelle: Yes, yes, exactly. It's just like the things that are out of your control, which is kind of the first thing that I ask myself when I'm upset with something—like, what is out of my control and what is in my control.

And the question is still the same, but the answers are so different because you don't know. Like, I have an 18-year-old, so I have no idea what he's—who he's talking to on social media or where he's going.

I can kind of stalk him using Live360, you know, if he's driving, but like who he's driving with or what choices he's making. And so there's a lot more that feels like way out of your control when you have teenagers. Yeah.

Why Work-Life Balance Skills Are Lifelong

Rebecca: But the tools to, to calm yourself down, to end some of the overwhelm, to get out of stress cycles, things like that are all very similar. You're just—you're—the way you're using them. That's so fascinating.

Well, I mean, I hopefully everybody hears that and is like, oh, good, I only have to learn this once and then I—then I get to learn how to apply it.

Michelle: Yes, that's exactly what I was gonna say. Yes. When I was listening to your podcast and having that thought about what I wish I had known 16 years ago, I thought I could have learned it then—learn it once and for all.

I feel like the things that you and I teach are lifelong tools that can be applied to literally almost any situation.

Sustainable Work-Life Balance: Tools That Work No Matter the Season

Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Absolutely. And I use the word sustainable a lot when I talk about the tools that I teach. Like, the goal is not to just help you today. The  goal is to help you forever, right?

It's to create sustainability in the work-life balance and ending the stress cycles and all those things so that you know what you need to do no matter how old your kids are or what—if your job changes or if your boss changes or if you get promoted or whatever happens in life, right?

I want you to be able to know how to handle those moments with a lot of ease and control so that you can, you know, live life the way you want.

Michelle: Yes, yes, exactly. It's like if you could join a gym for six months and stay in shape for the rest of your life. That's the—the comparison. A gym, you can't. You have to keep going. But this, you can.

Rebecca: Yeah, so good. I'm excited. We're going to talk a bit about people pleasing today. This is a topic that I have not chatted about on the podcast for a while, so I'm excited to have this conversation with you and hear some of your thoughts.

Do you consider yourself like a people pleaser or, like, were once a people pleaser? I'm curious.

Reformed People Pleaser: Why So Many Women Struggle With Putting Themselves First

Michelle: Yeah, I would definitely say I'm a reformed people pleaser. I definitely used to be, for sure. Everyone I know—let me just say it this way—everyone I know, a woman, every woman I know who's not a people pleaser has gotten there by working on not being a people pleaser.

I feel like we're so socialized to put others first and to be valued for the things that we do for other people that it's almost impossible not to have some kind of people pleasing. Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca: So how do you think about and talk about people pleasing with your clients?

People Pleasing Starts Early: How It’s Passed Down Generationally

Michelle: Well, I think the first thing that I want everyone to do is just realize that—that they are people pleasing and that they've probably been socialized to do that. And that the reason why it's just, like, systemic, you know, like, my mom taught me to people please. Not on purpose, because her mom taught her how to people please.

And it just gets passed along, generationally speaking. I think, especially as women—and I personally am the oldest daughter—I feel like that is the prime position to be. I am here to take care of all the other people.

So I want to give women awareness of that. That is what usually happens. And if you're listening to this, you're like, oh, that's not how it was, that's not how I was raised—which I hope is what my daughter's going to say one day.

But if you're in that position where you've already—you just weren't raised that way or you've already kicked people pleasing, then amazing. But I think for the vast majority of people, we do people please. And I help people get to the bottom of why that is.

The Real Reason Behind People Pleasing: Fear, Conflict, and Enoughness

So most of the time it's because we're afraid people won't like us. We don't want to have conflict with people, or we really tie—and you talk a lot about that—the trap of enoughness, you know, am I enough? And I think a lot of people tie their enoughness to what they're doing for other people.

Rebecca: Yeah, definitely. What do you see as some of the signs that you're a people pleaser. Like, what does that tend to look like on a really practical level?

The Hidden Link Between People Pleasing and Overwhelm

Michelle: That's a—that's a great question, because this is where I feel like it really ties in with what you talk about in terms of being ambitious and balanced. Because let's just think through an example. So if you're the go-to person—I mean, any of these things could relate to probably any of your listeners—but if you're the person at work who really has everybody else's back, and if somebody's going to be on vacation, you're going to be the person to cover for them.

You're probably the person who, like, hosts Thanksgiving for your whole family and who sets up your girls trips for the weekends, and you're just kind of that go-to person. And so what happens is when people ask you to do things and you say yes—this is the important part—you say yes when you want to say no. Then that definitely takes up a space on your calendar and in your brain.

And pretty soon your calendar and your brain are full of all these to-do lists that other people have given you that you actually really don't want, but you said yes to. So what it looks like is somebody who is really out of balance—ambitious and able to get a lot done and therefore takes on a lot of responsibility—but then feels totally overwhelmed and imbalanced.

So that's kind of what I see. So if somebody tells me, which almost all of my clients come in with the symptom of, I feel overwhelmed, people pleasing is one of the main things at the heart of that.

Do You Actually Want to Say Yes? Or Are You Just Telling Yourself You Do?

Rebecca: I mean, you said something that kind of struck me a little bit, which is that, you know, you say yes when you want to say no. So many women talk about—it’s not that they don't want to say no. Like, they actually do want to say yes to all of the things.

And so there's this challenge in—I think some of it is that we are tricking ourselves on some level to think that maybe all of these things are important to us or all of these things are a priority, when in reality maybe, maybe they're not.

I don't know. Like, do you find people are that aware of when they want to actually say no when they're saying yes?

The “Love and Fit” Test: A Simple Pause That Changes Everything

Michelle: No, they are not aware of when they say no. They want to say yes for sure. I think that is really the first step. So I use this tool called the Love and Fit Test. And really what it is is being able to learn to pause and check in with yourself and say, do I really want to say yes or no to this?

And I have two questions to figure out the answer to that question. But just the pausing is something that sometimes—like, I'll do a coaching session with someone, I'll explain this to them, and I'll say, you can still say yes when you want to say no, but just pause and see what you actually want to say.

And what I find for my people, which I think are probably the same as your people, is they're so used to being efficient and effective and all those things that they say yes as the default. I personally think no should be the default, but they say yes is the default.

And when I ask most people, what's your process for figuring out if you want to say yes or no to something, they're like, I don't know. I don't even think I stop. I think I just say yes. And then later I think, did I want to say yes? So they do, like, the long no, where they say yes and then it gets to be like two days before and they cancel.

Rebecca: Yeah. Okay, wait, you called it—what was the tool again?

Michelle: The Love and Fit Test.

Rebecca: The Love and Fit Test. Why do you call it that?

Michelle: Yes, I'll tell you. It has to do with the two questions that you ask yourself. Okay.

Rebecca: Okay.

Michelle: So the first thing is you—when someone asks you to do something like, I don't know, Rebecca, can you think of something that someone has asked you to do lately that you were like, I don't know if I want to do that?

Rebecca: Oh, well, I could tell you about, like, an ongoing commitment I have right now to our, like, our PTA board that I'm chairing—like, a committee that I don't really want to be chairing right now. And I'm making a decision on if I'm going to keep doing this or not. Yeah.

Pause Before You Say Yes: How to Break the Instant Response Habit

Michelle: Okay, so perfect. We can try it out on this. So if they were to say to you tomorrow, hey, can you re-sign up to chair this committee for the next six months, or whatever it is, if you use the Love and Fit Test, the first thing you do is you would stop and say, I'm not going to say anything until I think about this.

And I ask myself these two questions. And I think right now, societally speaking, especially if someone texts us something, we feel like we need to get right back to them. Email, same. In person, how do you not say yes in the moment?

So it's really just allowing that this is not an emergency. And sometimes you don't even have to tell yourself that—like, calm your body down, this is not an emergency. I'm not required to answer right now.

And in person, a really good thing to say is, thank you for thinking about me. I'll get back to you, and then just leave it. So buy yourself some time to actually.

Rebecca: I'm actually pretty good about that. I sometimes think that I need to be faster at it because I'll give myself a long time to think about things. Yeah, I might need to shorten that, but I'm pretty good at the pause, I will admit. So, okay.

Michelle: So I guess, which is amazing, then I would bet that your calendar looks more full of things that you have chosen that you want to do more than somebody who doesn't take that pause.

Rebecca: Yes.

Michelle: So you're probably, even if you feel like you're taking longer than you would want to, you probably have a calendar that more reflects the kind of life you want to have. So A plus, good job.

Rebecca: Absolutely.

Michelle: Good modeling for your clients. Okay. And then the questions that you ask yourself are, number one, do I absolutely love this idea? So if we think about you chairing this PTA committee, do you absolutely love the idea?

Rebecca: No, I do not.

The “Fit Test”: Does This Actually Align With the Life You Want?

Michelle: Okay, so we've got the no for the first question, and then the second is the fit test. But it's not do I have room in my calendar. It's does this fit into the type of life that I'm trying to create for myself?

So if you think about what type of life you're trying to create for yourself—like mine, for example, is a life that feels not overwhelming, the opposite of overwhelming, like not too full and joyful. That's sort of the kind of life that I'm trying to create for myself.

Rebecca: Yeah.

Michelle: So would you say that it passes the fit test?

Rebecca: At least in part. I mean, I'd have to sit and maybe think a little bit more, but my first instinct is to say there's a good portion of it that probably does. I like being involved in my kids' school. I get to be in their classroom more often because of it. I like that aspect of it. It's around art. I'm really passionate about making sure there's more art in my kids' school, so I like that aspect of it. It kind of hits the values of some of those things.

Frankly, I'm good at it, and so it's—I like being in a position that is somewhat easy for me that, you know, is a good checkbox for—it has a big impact because of it, and it's really not that hard for me. So I like that aspect of it. So there's a lot of reasons I would say it actually probably does fit into sort of the…

How to Decide What Stays on Your Plate

Michelle: Yeah. So when you've got one no and one yes, you do just like you're doing right now and just think through it. Give yourself the time to think through it.

What I would say if I was your coach is that sounds like it's actually a yes for you based on what you're saying there. So that might not be your favorite committee or that exact thing, but I still think it's much more powerful.

And I've got this exact situation with my daughter. She has taken horse lessons since kindergarten. She's 15. I do not like horse lessons. I do not like sitting there. They're super expensive. So if you ask me, do I absolutely love this idea, I would for sure say no.

But does it fit with the type of life I'm trying to create? Yes. Like a life where I have time to take my daughter to horse lessons and where I encourage my children to do the things that they love and I support that.

And so even though it's a no and a yes for me, I still do it. But doing it from the place of I am purposefully choosing to do this instead of, I have to go to these damn horse lessons. Oh, can I say damn?

Rebecca: Yeah. It's all good.

Michelle: Yeah. So it sounds like this situation could be like your horse lessons. Like, I want to be involved with my kids.

Rebecca: Yeah, this is a super simple tool. I love it.

Just Two Questions: A Simple Filter for Every Decision

Michelle: Yes, exactly. Just two questions. That's all you have to remember to ask yourself. And for me, one thing—this is kind of a funny, like, small example of it—but my friends, lots of my friends, just work regular jobs where they can go to lunch.

For me, lunchtime is one of my busiest client times because my clients want to see me on their lunchtime. And so when my friends would ask me to get together for lunch, do I love the idea of seeing them? Yes.

Does it fit into the type of life I'm trying to create? No. Like, I've arranged my business to work with my whole life, which means I need to work during lunchtime. So I just don't go out to lunch. Sometimes I might go out to breakfast. I don't really do stuff at night, but that's an example where I had like a yes and a no, and then I went with the no in this particular case.

And sometimes it's really clear. It's like something that you like. My—I love going to my gym. They just started a pickleball league. It's on Sunday afternoons. I was like, I absolutely love this idea. It totally fits in the type of life I'm going to create. It's like a hell yes kind of feeling.

And then there are others where it's a definite no. Like it's something I don't like, and it's going to make my life too busy for sure that's a no.

So I think if we can teach ourselves to, A, pause, and B, while you're pausing, ask yourself those two questions, you can really start having much better control about where you're spending your time and feel really aligned—in good alignment—with the things that are on your calendar.

There’s No “Right” Decision—Only Intentional Ones You Stand Behind

Rebecca: Yeah. I think what one of the things that's so important is, it's not—none of these opportunities or decisions are right or wrong. Like, you just get to decide if you're going to commit to this thing or not, or if you're going to go out for lunch with your friend or you're going to commit to a committee, whatever, right? You just get to decide.

And it's, you know, we've all sort of reached this point in midlife on some level where there is really a lot less black or white, and there isn't really a right or wrong to most things. It's just sort of an arbitrary decision.

So it's about loving your reasons behind it. And that's what I'm hearing within these questions is you're finding the reasons why you would say yes to it. And we're just wanting to make sure you're all in for those reasons and that if there's ever discomfort or frustration that you're doing this thing, you can come back to the reason you said yes, and it still feels really aligned for you for whatever reason you decided, right?

We just want really conscious, intentional decision making, not, you know, quick, un-evaluated decisions.

Michelle: Exactly. That's exactly it. I think when you said it's just saying yes or no with intention, as long as you do that—and you're right, there is no right or wrong. Like, your right might be my wrong and vice versa, and that's totally fine.

But I think on the whole, the other thing—and I've heard you say this on your podcast before, too—the other thing is, let's say you say yes to this committee, and then like two months from now, you totally regret it. Okay, great. Next year, you don't do it.

Don’t Judge Yourself.

Like, even if you make the wrong decision, you can just notice that without judging yourself and then not make that choice next time. Just very rarely the end of the world.

Rebecca: Very rarely. Yeah, maybe on occasion, but not—not often.

Michelle: Very rarely. I mean, even like quitting a job or starting a new career or whatever. Like, there's so few things that can't be where you can't change your mind.

Rebecca: Yeah, of course. Do you think this gets easier?

Michelle: Yes. Yes.

Rebecca: It's a lot of work to think through your commitments in this way. You know, a lot of cognitive, effort and time.

The Hardest Part Isn’t Deciding—It’s Saying No Without Overexplaining

Michelle: Yeah, yeah. And you just get to where it's a skill and you can just do it quickly. You can evaluate it really quickly. And I think the hardest part for both me and the people who I work with is the actual saying of no.

So figuring out if you want to say yes or no is a skill that you can learn pretty quickly. But, like, getting the words out of your mouth and not overexplaining can be really tough.

Rebecca: What are your thoughts on that? How do you do that well?

From Awareness to Action: How to Practice Saying No

Michelle: Yes. Okay. The first baby step that I have people take is to do this evaluation and figure out, does it pass the love or fit test, and then what the answer is. And that is just a win in and of itself.

Sometimes people will even say yes when they know they want to say no, just to practice the methodology. So if you're even just evaluating it and you know you don't want to do it, but you still said yes, I still consider that a win because you knew it.

And then the next step is to say no in a way that feels most comfortable to you at the time. A lot of times that looks like overexplaining or, you know, having some worry that you're going to hurt people's feelings or something like that.

And then eventually it's getting to what I think of as the cleanest no, which is just where you say, no. I did a whole podcast episode on, like, scripts for how to say no. You can say no, thank you. You can say, thank you for thinking of me, I'm not interested. There's all these different ways that you can say no.

Rebecca: I love it.

Michelle: Just saying it. And getting to the point, which is totally possible, where you don't feel bad about it and you're not worried about what other people think about you?

Rebecca: Yeah, I have my clients rehearse it.

Michelle: That's great.

Practice Saying No Out Loud: Build Confidence Before the Moment

Rebecca: I find it to be so helpful, like that—that mental rehearsal or practice. I mean, I would actually get it out of your lips, you know? Don't just say it in your head, because there is something about that that's really helpful to our brains.

But that's going to make it so it's not the first time that you're saying it, right? And that you—you really do find your power and you get to, like, wordsmith it out a little bit the first couple of times that you speak it out loud.

So that's always very helpful. Yes.

Start Where It Feels Easiest

Michelle: Yes. And sometimes texting a no can be easier than saying a no in person. And, you know, I think a lot of times talking to someone is a better way to handle it. But if you need to start with texting just to get that no out, I think that's a good way to go—just baby steps.

There doesn't have to be any, like, you have to do it this way. And eventually you will get so much more comfortable with it.

Stop Over-Apologizing: A Simple Shift That Builds Confidence

Rebecca: Thinking about practicing—and this is like practicing not necessarily saying no, but sort of—there's a similar skill set here as we're talking about it, is getting out of saying I'm sorry all of the time. I rewrite emails a lot where I usually start with, like, oh, I'm so sorry, I can't, blah, blah, blah.

Or if I'm running behind on something, you know, our first words out of our mouth are, I'm so sorry I'm running late, and blah, you know, however you might say that. Getting out of that habit of having an apology as a starting point and just being able to just say, I'm, you know, I was running behind.

Or not giving—learning how to just give a one-sentence no or response to something that doesn't have an apology in it. It's really a really powerful practice to start watching how you write things and how often you say you're sorry and learning how to erase that from the email before you send it.

Michelle: Yeah, I think that's so good. And it's so similar too, because it's just sort of a default. And I always try to ask myself, am I actually sorry about this? And sometimes I am, and then I'll leave the sorry in there.

But if you're just using it as, like, a fun filler—in fact, I just had this experience the other day. I was with my daughter. We were at Five Below getting some—what do you call those things that you, like, play with at school to distract yourself?

Rebecca: Like fidget toys.

You Don’t Have to Apologize: Teaching Kids (and Ourselves) a Better Default

Michelle: Yeah, like a fidget toy that my daughter wanted. And we were in line, and there was a mom and daughter in front of us, and the daughter had, like, grabbed the wrong thing. And so she had to go past us and go out of line and then cut back in front of us in line.

And she came back and she's like, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm so sorry when she passed us. And her mom just, like, patted her on the back and said, sweetie, you don't need to say sorry. Just say excuse me.

And I wanted to be like, high five, mom. That is some excellent parenting right there. Because obviously she felt like she needed to be, I mean, overly apologetic. She didn't, like, run into us or anything. She just cut in front of us, which we knew she was going to do, and it was no big deal.

But I thought that was such a good way for the mom to handle it, just to say, you can just say excuse me. You don't have to be sorry.

You Don’t Need to Apologize for Someone Else’s Feelings

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. Thinking about that with my daughter, who is very in tune with my emotional state and so is in this stage right now at eleven and a half—love her—that she will say, if I'm in whatever mood, she might come up to me and say she's sorry and give me a hug or something like that.

And my response is usually like, you know, there's nothing to be—don't apologize. You could be sympathetic, but you don't have to apologize, right? You could be compassionate. You could say, can I give you a hug? Or you could say, I noticed that you're not feeling well or you're feeling upset or whatever.

But getting I'm sorry out of our daily vocabulary and bringing awareness to how often that is being said is almost like a filler of some kind. But it's so—I think it's really powerful to get out of that habit.

You know, like if a friend of mine texts me she's not feeling well, my first response is always, oh, I'm so sorry. Am I really sorry? Or like, what else can I say that's actually more in tune with what she probably needs to hear right now and that's more compassionate? It's probably not apologizing. What am I apologizing for? I'm not even part of it.

Michelle: Yeah, you're just apologizing because that's how we learned.

Rebecca: That's what we learned.

Michelle: Be sorry and take care of everybody else. That was the manual.

Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely.

Michelle: I love that, though. I think that's a really similar example to what we're talking about with saying no. And I think it's so important to remember that when you first start changing anything—like if you start changing and saying no more or trying to stop saying sorry—that it will feel uncomfortable, and that's okay. And that the level of discomfort goes down as you get more practice.

Rebecca: Yep, yep. We're out of practice in saying no. We're out of practice in not saying we're sorry, right? It's not that there's a problem here. You're just not very practiced at it. Yeah, I think an easier way to say it—yes, exactly.

From People Pleasing to “I Don’t Take Crap Anymore”

Michelle: Or I currently struggle with saying no, but I'm working on it, you know, things like that. But I have really seen people—I always joke that when someone works with me for six months, by the time they get to the end, they reach this level of, I don't take any crap anymore.

And they started off as really nice people and they end as really nice people, but they just get to the point where they're like, I'm not doing things just because other people want me to anymore. And it's amazing what happens when they reach—there's just a point where everybody reaches this stage, and it's like, you take less crap.

And then I see people get promoted and make more money and have better relationships. It's like the more they do that, the more successful they are, when we've kind of always been taught that the opposite is true.

Why Saying No Actually Leads to More Success

Rebecca: Yeah. Why do you think that? I mean, this—there's so many people that listen to this podcast, right? They're self-identifying as ambitious. So they're likely big goal setters. They're likely, you know, at a good point in their career, have desire to get promoted, all of the things.

Why is learning how to say no and related to being more successful, do you think?

Why Saying No Builds Trust, Focus, and Real Success

Michelle: I think it's just because that way you're, like I said, putting things on your calendar that really matter to you in your life. You're not doing a bunch of extra stuff, so you can really focus on what's most important to you, what's most important for your job.

And people know—I don't know if you can think of a friend of yours who says no when she means no and says yes when she means yes. I mean, I can exactly picture the friend of mine who's like that.

And you just know you trust her because she says yes when she means it, she says no when she means it. She doesn't apologize for who she is. It's just so easy to work with someone like that and to be friends with someone like that.

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. There's no sugar coating anything. Yeah.

People Pleasing Isn’t Kindness—It’s Trying to Control How Others Feel

Michelle: Yes, exactly. Exactly. I think too, sometimes women—this might be a little bit off topic—but I feel like this is a question that I get a lot from people is, well, I still want to be a nice person. You know, I don't want to say no and disappoint people. I still want to be a nice person.

But I think essentially when we're people pleasing, what's at the heart of it—and we're not consciously thinking this—is we're trying to control how other people feel about us, right? So if someone asks me to do something and I don't want to do it, but I think they're going to be mad at me, I essentially lie and say yes, I want to do that in order to try to control that they like me.

So it's like, how nice is that compared to just telling the truth? Tell the truth, but kindly.

The Real Reason It’s Hard to Say No: Avoiding Your Own Feelings

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. I like to think about it too. Some of the ways—it's so interesting how we're so very similar in everything that we talk about, but with, like, slightly different flavors, you know…

Michelle: I always learn so much from you when I talk to you.

Rebecca: I know. Same, same. Same. So, so fun to have this conversation with you.

But I tell people that what you're really trying to do is you're really trying to prevent yourself from having a feeling. If they were to have a feeling, like it's very preventative.

So if you say no and they're disappointed, then you're going to feel like you're not a good friend or like you're a failure or that you're inadequate in some way or you're not good enough. And so you're going to have all these feelings about yourself because of what they're feeling. And really what you're trying to do is avoid all of that.

Michelle: Exactly. I love that. That's like we're saying the same thing, but in two different ways. But I love the way you're saying that. That makes so much sense. It's like, to avoid the discomfort, I'm going to say yes. I don't want to feel the discomfort of saying no. And I think it's funny…

The Real Work: Changing the Story You Tell Yourself When You Say No

Rebecca: The potential of saying no and the possibility of all of the narrative that I'm then going to tell myself if I say no, right? And so I oftentimes want to help get my clients—let's just figure out the narrative that you're avoiding right now, because that's really at the heart of why you're saying yes all the time.

Let's get to that belief that you are holding about yourself as being a yes person, that if all of a sudden you said no, you know, you'd become almost like this new identity on some level. A lot of my clients fear that.

You’re Guessing How Others Feel—and You Might Be Wrong

Michelle: Yeah, for sure. Mine too. Mine too. A lot of times people worry that the person won't like them. And I will often say to my clients, well, what if they already don't like you? What if they don't like you right now? What if they are going to like you no matter if you say yes or no?

Like, we really don't know. It's all projection of how we think the other person feels now and how they might feel later. And we just really don't even know what that is in the first place.

So I think instead of trying to play this guessing game, it's so much better just to be true to yourself and what you want to do. And again, you can do that very kindly. You don't have to be rude or abrupt or brusque or any of that stuff—unless you want to, and if you do, go for it.

Stop Coddling People: They Can Handle Your No

Rebecca: I like—you know, the other way I like to think about it sometimes is I feel like we coddle people as if they can't handle the disappointment of me saying no. As if they're so fragile in their emotional state, you know, that they aren't going to be able to handle me saying no on some level.

That's kind of what we're saying. You're, like, coddling them. I don't want anybody to do that to me. Like, I can handle it. Like, just say what you need to say, and I'm fine. I mean that.

When we really get to the heart of it, we coddle a lot of people. We coddle our kids a lot, too, right? Like, it starts young.

Michelle: Yes, like trying to prevent them from having an uncomfortable feeling, right? And yeah, you're doing the same thing to them as we do to ourselves.

Rebecca: Yeah.

One Simple Trick: Compare the Discomfort of Saying No vs. Doing It

Michelle: Sometimes I will ask my clients, when they say no to something, to put that thing on their calendar anyway so that when it comes up, they can see it and be like, oh, I'm so glad I'm not on that weekend right now, or I'm so glad I'm not going to that meeting tonight.

And I ask them to compare the discomfort that they feel in saying no with the discomfort that they would feel in spending, you know, two hours of a Thursday evening on something that they don't want to do.

And often the discomfort of saying no, which can last like a minute or two, is way better than doing the thing.

Every No Creates a Better Yes: Choosing What You’re Really Committing To

Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what are you actually saying yes to is another, you know, avenue of coaching that we could take people down, right? It's like you're saying yes to something. If it's not this, what are you saying yes to?

Which yes would you prefer, right? Because there's always a yes when there's a no. And so making sure—thinking about which yes is more aligned with what you love and what fits into your life and your values and all the things—is another way of thinking about it.

Michelle: Yeah, I love that.

Rebecca: So I want to chat a little bit about this quiz that I took. So you developed this quiz, and what's it called? Tell me the name of it again. Tell us the name of it.

Michelle: Why Are You Feeling Overwhelmed? That's the question.

Rebecca: And so—what? That's right. Why Are You Feeling Overwhelmed? So I took this quiz, and I just love the way this breaks down. And it comes out into, like, five different categories right at the end of it.

Michelle: Correct. Yep.

Rebecca: Why do you think it's so powerful for people to identify with, like, understanding where their overwhelm comes from?

Why You Can’t Solve Overwhelm Until You Understand It

Michelle: Well, when you're feeling overwhelmed, it's very hard to think clearly. I might even say impossible to think clearly. So usually when you feel overwhelmed, it's more than stressed. It's multiple stresses happening at the same time, and sort of the hallmark of it is not being able to think clearly.

So it's very hard to sit down and say, why am I overwhelmed? What should I do to stop feeling overwhelmed?

So I developed this quiz that basically asks you, in certain scenarios, what you might do, and then it gives you an answer so that you can have a specific area to focus on to start reducing your overwhelm.

So, for example, one of the answers could be setting boundaries and people pleasing, and then you would try to work on exactly these things that we're talking about in this podcast. Or the answer could be the way that you're managing your time, and then I have some strategies for how to quickly start planning better for the week and managing your time better.

So it really just helps you take this big, huge feeling of overwhelm and look at it as a specific thing and start working on that. Because once you feel a little bit of relief from overwhelm and you can start thinking clearly again, you can solve a lot of things.

Stress vs. Overwhelm

Rebecca: Yeah, I'm actually—I’m all the way back at your first comment that stress and overwhelm are different. I don't know if I've really ever thought about it in that sense before.

But it is true. I can feel stressed and have some clarity of thought still in that stress. But when I'm feeling overwhelmed, it's like a cloud of darkness in my mind. Like, I literally can't think straight at all. And I can't make decisions. I procrastinate on everything. I feel terrible about everything, right?

There's just this almost immobile state that happens when I'm in overwhelm that is actually quite different than when I'm feeling stressed. So that's—yeah, that's interesting.

Michelle: Yeah. And I think it's really—that's a great example. And I think it's really important to identify that in the moment because stress can even be good for you. It can be, like, slightly motivating. 

And, you know, let's say you had to give a big presentation or something for work, you might feel stressed about that, but you've got your pitch prepared and you know what you're going to say and you can get through it. So stress is okay, and it feels a certain way, usually in people's bodies.

And then overwhelm would be like, oh, if you had a sick kid at home and you had that presentation and you've got something else, and they all come together and it's just more than your brain can handle, in which case you go into true overwhelm, which is, I'm doing nothing.

From Fog to Clarity: How Identifying Overwhelm Changes Everything

Rebecca: Yeah, yeah. And so in taking this quiz and answering the questions the way you did, you know, the way you structured it, you come out with much more clarity around what that source of overwhelm is, so that the fog lifts a little bit and you can start, you know, making some really powerful decisions for yourself—your time, your commitments, and all the things that you need to do.

Overwhelm Is a Volume Problem: Reduce It to Think Clearly Again

Michelle: Yes, exactly. And I think when you're in overwhelm, I think of it like a volume problem. Like you have too many stressors all landing on you at the same time.

So if you can reduce that volume by focusing on one thing and get back to just stress—I'm air quoting “just stress”—I know stress can be obviously difficult too, but I think stress is much more manageable.

So, yeah, the idea is this will help you back it down a little so that you can get to clear thinking, start making some small changes, because obviously you can't solve overwhelm all at one go. But you can start by working on a piece of it.

Rebecca: Yeah, so good. So this quiz is available for free. Yeah. How do people find it?

Michelle: Yeah. Yes. If you just go to my website, michellegauthier.com, it's right there on the homepage.

Rebecca: Awesome. We're going to put that in the show notes, of course, as well, make it super easy for you to find it.

And what I love about it is, as I was going through it, there's some really practical—lots of practical next steps. It's not just identifying—like, you literally give a tailored tool to each type of person, each type of outcome that could come from this quiz, right?

So really practical strategies to think about how to alleviate some of that overwhelm, gain back some of your thoughts so you can really start moving forward. So I just—it’s really, really powerful. So thank you so much for developing it and offering it here.

Michelle: Well, good. I'm so glad. It was really fun. I'm, like, basing it off the quizzes I used to love to take in magazines back in the day.

Rebecca: Oh my gosh. And it kind of felt like that, actually. So yeah, totally. I love it.

Michelle: It's easy, and then you get some actual helpful results versus, like, who's your celebrity crush or something. That's not as helpful.

Rebecca: But, you know, still has value at that age. So fun, so fun. So there's that. And then tell us a little bit more about how people can find you. And you—obviously you have an amazing podcast as well. Tell us a little bit about that.

Michelle: Yes. So my podcast is called Overwhelmed Working Woman. I do short episodes, and they drop on Mondays and Thursdays. And in each one, I try to teach a practical lesson and give one takeaway tool, kind of like the Love and Fit Test that I was talking about today.

I am a woman of action, so I want to know what to do. I don't want to hear theoretically. I want to know—tell me what to do. So that's what I try to provide in the podcast.

Rebecca: So good. Yeah, it's awesome. It's such a great podcast, and it is really super practical. So I love that. So you're already listening to this podcast. Just go find that one wherever you're listening now.

Collaboration Over Competition: How Women Grow Together

Michelle: So, yes, that's right. I've got to say, like, just for everybody listening, I love this. I love the fact that this is the way that women can collaborate, that I don't always think that people remember.

So we're essentially doing the same thing with different words and maybe slightly different audiences, but we're like, hey, tell me what you're doing so I can learn from you. Let me share with your audience. You share with my audience.

It's just such a fun, collaborative thing versus, like, competitors, and I'm trying to keep things secret from you, or you're trying to keep them secret from me. I mean, we send each other voice notes back and forth like, hey, what should we do for this? What'd you do for that?

It's just—I just think it's so cool and so encouraging about the way that women collaborate.

Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely. So fun. So fun to have you on the podcast, Michelle. I can't believe it's taken us six years to do this.

Michelle: I agree. What have we—

Rebecca: What have we been doing? I have no idea. So, so fun. Thank you for being here. And until next week, let's get to it.

Ending Every Day Feeling Behind?   

Hey, before you go, quick question. Are you ending most days feeling behind? No matter how much you get done?   

   

If this is happening right now, it's not a time management problem. It's a pattern. And stress patterns don't fix themselves. They compound.   

   

Most working moms don't actually need more time. They need to feel back in control.   

   

Inside my Break Free from Stress Strategy Call,   we spend 30 focused minutes identifying exactly what is driving your   overwhelm and mapping out a clear shift, so you stop reacting and start   leading your life again.   

   

If you're tired of white-knuckling your weeks,   don't put this off. Go to the show notes and click on the Break Free   from Stress Strategy Call link to schedule your call right now.   

   

All right, working moms, till next week, let's get to it. 

Rebecca Olson