Practical tools to manage insecurity (with Melissa Hucal)

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On this episode of the podcast, I talk with my client Melissa about how she learned to handle her inner voice of self-doubt. 

We discuss simple tools she uses to prepare for tough situations and shift her mindset, helping her feel more confident in her work and home life. Melissa’s story shows how important it is to accept our insecurities as part of who we are.

Tune in for tips on balancing ambition and motherhood and turning self-doubt into strength. Let’s get to it.

Topics in this episode:

  • How to manage self-doubt.

  • Balancing work and being a single parent.

  • Tools for shifting your mindset.

  • Accepting our insecurities.

  • Turning self-doubt into strength.

 Show Notes & References:  

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Transcript

Intro

You know, that little voice that's inside of you that's always kind of whispering…

You're not good enough. 

Somebody's going to find out one of these days that you shouldn't be in this job. 

You're an imposter. 

You might feel like you're all alone with that little voice inside of you, but the reality is, we all have an insecure voice that is whispering negative thoughts in our ear. 

In, today's podcast, I am interviewing my client, Melissa, who shares with us her revolutionary understanding of that little voice that's always telling her that she's not good enough. Because when she started coaching, she wanted to learn how to get rid of that voice altogether. But what she discovered was actually the most powerful thing that she could ever learn how to do was not how to silence that voice, which would be near impossible and exhausting, but instead how to manage it. 

If you want to learn how to interact and manage that insecure voice that's inside of you, then tune in, because this one's for you. 

Welcome to the Ambitious and Balanced Working Moms podcast, the place for women who want to balance their ambitious career goals with their life as a mom. If you're looking to feel more confident, decisive, and productive at both work and home, then this is the place for you. I'm your host, Rebecca Olson. Let's get to it.

>> Rebecca: Right, working moms. I am really excited for our conversation today. I have a client that just finished her six months with me. Her name is Melissa Huckel. Thank you for being here, Melissa.

>> Melissa: Thank you.

>> Rebecca: I know, so good. This is going to be such a great conversation. We actually were starting to dive into it a little bit a moment ago, before I had hit the record, but I'm like, let's just pause. Let's just hold on. We got to, like, save this for the recording. So I asked Melissa to come on this podcast to talk about what we have affectionately started calling in our coaching together, Insecure Melissa.

And so we're going to talk about insecurity today, because this is something that I think probably every human experiences on some level, but I know for women, it is this very vulnerable place to talk about insecurity.

And yet we all experience it. And yet we all judge ourselves for experiencing it. And yet we think we shouldn't be.

We all have these, like, shoulds around our insecurities and so forth.

And Melissa and I had just amazing conversations over the last six months around what Insecure Melissa does, sounds like, thinks like, how she influences her, how to manage her—so many good things.

So we're going to talk all about insecurity today and what it looks like to manage insecurity.

So thanks for having this vulnerable conversation. So excited, Melissa.

>> Melissa: Yeah, thanks for inviting me on. I'm excited too.

>> Rebecca: Yeah. Tell us, just a little bit about yourself as we get going here. What do you do? What's your kid life like and so forth?

Who is Melissa?

>> Melissa: Absolutely. So my name is Melissa. I live in Peoria, Illinois. So really center of the state, center of the US, so heart of America, right?

>> Rebecca: Yeah.

>> Melissa: So I work for a marketing agency in Peoria called samantha. I am a leader of our PR and social media teams, and I am a single mom of two boys. I have a 20 year old and a 17 year old.

>> Rebecca: Oh, my goodness.

>> Melissa: Yes. And we've grown up in the area. So one is just finishing his associate's degree this semester, and the other is a junior in college or, sorry, junior in high school.

>> Rebecca: So good, so good. You're just like, you're a couple of steps ahead of me, which I've always, I've loved hearing that in our conversations just because it's always nice to have a community of people that are a little ahead, a little behind. You know, you kind of pull up people behind you, look to people ahead of you. And so I definitely have enjoyed conversations around what the future's gonna be like for me and having more, like adult kids, it's craziness.

>> Melissa: Absolutely, absolutely. They grow up so fast. But you do get there. That's the thing, right? You always think when you're in the throws of it that you're not going to get there. But you do.

>> Rebecca: Yeah, for sure. You always get there. You always get there. Yeah. One of the things I have to sit and remind myself a lot - because I have an almost seven year old, he turns seven in just a couple weeks, and then a nine and a half year old. And let's just say, for example, getting on shoes still can be a struggle at the age of seven, right. And it just feels endless. It's like, is he ever going to learn how to put on his shoes? And I literally stop every once in a while and I go, I've never known a 17 year old who doesn't know how to put on his shoes.

>> Melissa: Exactly. Exactly.

>> Rebecca: I don't know when the day is gonna happen, but I have yet to meet a 17 year old that doesn't know how to put on his shoes. So I know one day we're gonna get there.

>> Melissa: Absolutely.

>> Rebecca: Absolutely. at least I think I'm right, right? They put on their own, is that true?

>> Melissa: They both wear shoes. They still will walk out in the middle of winter in shorts.

>> Rebecca: Oh, my goodness.

>> Melissa: That's a different battle.

Real Talk on Insecurity

>> Rebecca: Different battle. Different battle. So, good. Let's dive into talking about insecurities. So, tell me, tell me what you remember, because we worked together for six months, right? So this was now. I mean, a while ago, sometime last summer or so, when we started together. 

Tell me about what you remember. The early conversations we were having about insecurity and when we started, like, labeling this, like, alter ego, if you will, that we called insecure Melissa.

>> Melissa: Yeah. So when I first started working with you, I had just been promoted into my leadership position at Simantal.

And so I was in this place where I had this opportunity to kind of help the agency define some new services for our company. So it's super exciting, right? And it's one of those things you're like, Yeah, this is it. This is what I've worked for.

The Hidden Insecurity Behind Career Success

But as I was starting my work with you, there was still just this—I was wrestling with these feelings of, Oh my gosh, what if they made the wrong choice? What if I'm not the right person? What if I can't do everything that they want me to do? What if I disappoint someone?

You know, all of these things that are just kind of swirling in me.

On the outside, though, I was trying to look like I had it all together, which was a complete mismatch with what was going on inside of Melissa. Right? Like, she's just all over the place and just really catastrophizing everything that could be potentially wonderful.

>> Rebecca: Yeah.

>> Melissa: Every day, you know, I'm walking in, just dealing with almost, like, that inner fight, you know, those two. Those two things just striking up against each other. And so I remember coming in and talking to you about those. Right?

>> Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely.

>> Melissa: How do I get this to match?

The Confidence Gap: When Outside Success Doesn’t Match the Inside

>> Rebecca: Right. And, you know, a lot of people would label that confidence in some level, right?

That's a goal for a lot of my clients: I want to increase confidence. And usually what they mean is just this—like, I'm doing it all on the outside, but inside, I'm like a disaster.

I feel so insecure. I feel like I lack confidence. I feel like I don't believe in myself. I'm always second-guessing myself. I'm catastrophizing everything.

I walk into every meeting just going, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe they're gonna think I made the wrong choice.

Imposter Syndrome in Leadership: The Disconnect Between Perception and Reality

All these things—the internal dialogue and the emotions that are going on—just don't seem to match the external circumstance.

Promoted into this job. Manage people. Do it. Super successful. People seem to value you. Keep moving up.

Like, all these things on the outside just aren't matching the inside. Right?

Such a common experience. I don't think it's unique to just women, but I think a lot of women experience it, particularly as we move up.

We could call that imposter syndrome. That's another way that people might describe it.

We're all kind of talking about the same thing—this kind of insecurity.

>> Melissa: Absolutely, absolutely.

>> Rebecca: I remember for myself, and I was just telling the story to someone just the other day, like, I had a goal in my business, in my work over the first quarter of the year to, I didn't want to grow at all in my business. I just didn't want to think about growth. 

I just wanted things to kind of maintain, and I wanted to be consistent in the things that I was doing, in the ways that I was marketing and, you know, and how I was showing up for my clients and all of these things. 

And, I mean, we're at the end of the first quarter. We're already in the second quarter right now.

>> Melissa: Right.

High Achievement, Low Confidence: What Success Often Hides

>> Rebecca: I was super successful at it, but internally, over the first 3 months of the year, I was like a rollercoaster.

I kept thinking I was doing everything wrong and that I should be doing things differently, and I should be doing more. Like, What am I doing? I'm totally lost.

I had these big, insecure thoughts—everything is wrong, and I need to be doing something differently.

I experienced that in my own way. Regularly. Consistently.

>> Melissa: Yeah. And I think the thing that is so just insightful to me about that is how big those feelings can get.

>> Rebecca: Right.

>> Melissa: Like, you think it's. It's just a little, like, internal talk, but it can get so big and so consuming so quickly and just move you into this, making decisions based on what you're feeling in the moment, really looking at.

>> Rebecca: Yeah.

>> Melissa: Right, right. Like, how do I get out of being, like, so uncomfortable and get into space that is more comfortable? And it just, for me, at least, it gets there so quickly, I can spit it out so fast.

>> Rebecca: And I don't know about you, but, it's so uncomfortable that I label it bad. I label it wrong.

>> Melissa: Yeah.

>> Rebecca: And that's where we start to get into a slippery slope. So tell me about that, because I know that that's such a big part of dealing with insecurity is kind of coming to terms with it instead of making it mean a whole lot of stuff.

Default Mode: Second-Guess Everything

>> Melissa: Yeah. I mean, for me, as I started to realize kind of what my default was—like I said—it was so big. Just really understanding that the default was second-guessing. Right? That was—I kind of fell to that a lot.

Second-guessing is—you know, we put that name on Insecure Melissa. That’s her go-to for everything. It's like, Let's second guess it.

The Inner Critic Only Remembers the Bad

She has a great memory, but only for the things that are bad.She can pull out every failure, every misstep of my past, and really remind me of that.

And so I think just the whole process of stepping back and looking at what are the triggers and what were the commonalities—regardless of the trigger—she’d always pull to these same sorts of things.

>> Rebecca: Right.

When Insecurity Sounds Like Humiliation

>> Melissa: Like, I'm going to second guess it. I'm going to pull to the past. I'm going to jump to the negative outcome and just remind you, Melissa, right here—that you're not going to come out of this.

And really, for me, she would kind of pull the curtain back on my biggest fear, which was humiliation. Right? Just being unmasked in front of people who were important to me.

And so really understanding how she behaved was really important, I think, in understanding how to then talk to her, how to work with her, how to get through those situations with her there.

Identifying the Swirl: What Insecurity Feels Like in Real Time

>> Rebecca: Right, right. And what we're kind of describing here is—I've used different terms with my clients around this before—but this kind of swirl that happens, right?

Whenever you're kind of in that insecure place or that lack of confidence, it always looks the same, it always sounds the same in your head, it always feels the same way in your body, and you always kind of respond or do things based on that.

It's your swirl. It's your default kind of place to go.

And so we spent a lot of time getting really familiar with what that swirl sounded like in your head, felt like in your body, and what it looked like when you were in that place—because we wanted your conscious brain to be able to identify it as quickly as possible.

That whatever was happening was coming from insecurity.

The Insecure Cycle: How to Recognize It and Why It Matters

So we had to kind of dive in and go, What does this really look like? And you named a bunch of things that I think so many people can relate to when they're in this kind of swirl of insecurity—catastrophizing, second-guessing.

In your head, it looks like rumination. Replaying the meeting over and over again and the exact words that you used, and wondering if you should have used these words instead.

All this role-playing, that kind of scenario playing that goes on—sleepless nights, maybe, or spending way too much time crafting an email out of fear.

You know, these are things that we all understand and we can all relate to on some level. And we identified it as being—it’s like your insecure cycle. When you're feeling insecure, this is what happens.

And I do this with all of my clients. For some of them, it's inadequacy. For some of them, it’s feeling incapable. For some of them, it's fear of failure.

We kind of label it different things for everybody. But it's so important to do this.

And I'm curious what the impact of you getting that close and familiar with your cycle and kind of your insecure self—what was important about that for you?

Seeking External Validation.

>> Melissa: What that did for me is it really opened my eyes to how much I seek validation outside of me. Because she would really come on full force when I thought I was going to disappoint someone or when I thought someone was going to…

So it really brought to light that for quite some time, I've been seeking this validation from other people based on how I'm performing.

Right? So it's very I have to do this right, or they're not going to like me anymore, they're not going to ask me to participate in this job, they're not going to do these things that I want.

So really understanding her helped me kind of identify that for myself.

>> Rebecca: Yeah, I find it really helpful to think about it almost being like an alter ego, if you will, or it's kind of why we gave her a name of insecure Melissa. How's that helped you?

Acknowledging a piece of self.

>> Melissa: I think it has helped me in that it has acknowledged that it really is a piece of me.

>> Rebecca: Right.

Why Giving Insecurity an Identity Changes Everything

>> Melissa: So she's part of me. But it's also a part that—when you give it that kind of identity—I could talk to that. Right? I can address that, as opposed to, Well, it's just a feeling that I don't know what to do with.

But when you put some kind of identity around it, there's an opportunity then to engage with it and, yeah, give it what it needs to help you get through whatever you're doing there—to get to your goals.

The Goal Isn’t to Get Rid of Insecurity—It’s to Work With It

>> Rebecca: Yeah. And we were just talking about this before we kind of hit the record button, but insecurity feels so bad that for most of us, we just don't want to feel it anymore.

And I have no doubt that you came in feeling like, Rebecca, I just want to stop feeling insecure.

I mean, if you could have said that—I don't think you could have used those words right in the beginning—but basically, that's what you wanted.

I want to stop not believing in myself. I want to stop second-guessing myself. I want to feel more confident. I want to feel—yeah—I want to feel good and adequate and valuable. You know, I want to feel all these things.

And I remember I told you, Melissa, actually, I don't think that's what you want. I think you actually still want Insecure Melissa to be around.

Yeah. What was that? What's been your experience with that understanding—of wanting to keep Insecure Melissa? And actually, the goal was not to get rid of her.

>> Melissa: Yeah. I think when you first said that, I was like, are you what? But why? You know, I feel like she's holding me back. 

But then when I realized that how integral she is as a part of me, and if you really dig down into her motivation, I think her heart is in the right place, and a lot of it is really kind of this, I want to protect you, I want to be a little bit self protective. 

And so that's why she really flares up in those situations where I think that there is a threat either to me personally or…

>> Rebecca: Or, you know, your ego or your image..

>> Melissa: Yeah. Exactly.

>> Rebecca: Yeah, for sure.

>> Melissa: But I think also keeping her around, I think, for me, is a way also to keep me grounded. Right. She kind of keeps me in this space to say, okay, but let's, you know, take a step back and really think about motivation or, you know, why you're doing this.

Insecurity Isn’t the Enemy

>> Rebecca: She's useful in lots of different ways. Even just in the—when you know that she's there and she's protecting you from something—on some level, you kind of want to know what she's protecting you from.

Like, what is the potential failure or humiliation? Or what does she see as being a moment where you should be feeling insecure and fearing something? She has wisdom when she shows up. Right? She has something to sort of offer in those moments, if you choose to listen to it in that way.

But I think that's why, again, I love the idea that we think about her as being a part of us. There's an identity element of that, because all of a sudden, we see that she's a part of your team.

You know, I like to talk about Inside Out. A lot of moms have seen the movie. Second one's coming out—I can't wait to see the second one.

But it's kind of that idea, right? There are different parts of you that operate and are kind of running—are at your control panel. And one of them is insecurity. One of them is fear.

And in reality, we never—we don't really want to get rid of her, because she's actually doing you a favor by pointing out moments that potential failure and humiliation might happen.

It's just going to be—are you going to listen to that? Or is it really a fear? Is it really a threat or not?

>> Melissa: Right. Absolutely. And, you know, to that, like, one of the things that you mentioned inside out, one of the things about that too, that I loved is without, you know, particularly for the little girl in the movie, without sadness, she didn't know joy.

Recognizing true confidence.

So without having this kind of insecure sided understanding what that feels, I don't know that I could ever get to a spot that I would recognize true confidence or true ownership of my feelings or capabilities, because I don't know the other end of that. 

And I think you have to know both to experience it.

How Prepping for Meetings Helped Quiet Insecurity

>> Rebecca: Let's go to an example, because I think this would be really helpful. And let's talk about going into a meeting, because this was something that we talked about. We created a tool for you on how to prep for meetings in a little bit of a different way, so Insecure Melissa didn't show up so much as she used to in some of these.

But I want to paint a little bit of a before and after. Tell us a little bit about how
in these triggering meetings—obviously, they weren't every meeting, right? But we're talking about some specific ones in particular.

What that used to look like, and how—when Insecure Melissa was kind of running you and your decisions—what those situations tended to look like in the meetings.

>> Melissa: Sure. When she showed up in meetings, I would present myself as very defensive. You know, people would ask me questions, and I'd be like, well, why are you questioning that? You know, I did all of the work.

>> Rebecca: Yeah.

>> Melissa: Right. I did all of the things that you asked me to. What's wrong with this?

>> Rebecca: Yeah.

>> Melissa: And then I would start to internalize that. Okay, there's something wrong with me.

>> Rebecca: Right.

>> Melissa: Because there was something wrong with what I had produced. And so she would.

>> Rebecca: In the moment, there was defensiveness. There was like, well, hold. I mean, okay, well, let me explain to you how I got to this and, like, let me prove to you. And then..

>> Melissa: But let me prove to you that I know what I'm doing, right.

>> Rebecca: In the moment, and probably outside of that moment thinking, my gosh, I did this wrong. I should have done it a completely different way.

>> Melissa: Exactly. I should have done it this. And why didn't I think about that? You should have known I would. You know, I should, would. I would should myself. All that. You know, you should have known that. You should have prepared for that. You should have expected.

>> Rebecca: Yep.

>> Melissa: That that was going to come.

>> Rebecca: Yeah. So there were things inside the meeting that were going on. There were things outside of the meeting. What, what else? Did you notice that when insecure, Melissa was kind of running these meetings? What happened?

Not knowing what to do next.

>> Melissa: I think a lot of times she would walk out of those meetings without clear direction of what she would. Not knowing what to do next and actually thinking confusion. Right. 

A little bit of this attitude of, you know what? I can't do anything. Right. I'm not going to do anything. And almost a checkout, she would almost shut everything down and say, I'm just. I'm just not going to do anything then, because nothing I do is going to be right. And that would spill over.

>> Rebecca: Right.

>> Melissa: That would spill over into home. So, you know, I'd be like, can't do anything. I can't even. You know, it would be a complete numbing. I can't function. I will. I'm just gonna go into this little, you know, I just go into little cocoon.

>> Rebecca: Yeah.

>> Melissa: Right. Insecure Melissa wants to roll herself into this cocoon and not talk to anyone. Like, I want to sit in my little jar. Keep me in this jar. I'm not coming out.

When Coping Looks Like Numbing

>> Rebecca: Yeah. And the cocoon looks a little bit different for a lot of people. But to be honest, I think that cocoon is oftentimes, like, when that feeling of, All I can do tonight is curl up with a glass of wine and numb out with Netflix. Like, That’s all I got.

That's a cocoon, right? That's us kind of shutting down and not being able to engage. And feeling like—when insecurity and that fear have really overtaken all of our emotions and our body—and that's all we’ve got. That's all we’ve got left at the end of the day.

We like to think that that's us kind of unwinding, but I think a lot of times, it's us actually retreating because of the insecurity that's happened throughout the day and the emotions that have happened throughout the day.

>> Melissa: Right, yeah, absolutely. Because you're doing everything that you can to get away from them.

>> Rebecca: Right.

>> Melissa: Right. If I immerse myself into, you know, the 10th episode of Gilmore Girls, I never have to think about.

>> Rebecca: Yeah. What went on, for sure.

>> Melissa: What went on today.

>> Rebecca: And don't—I mean, don't get me wrong. I love my Netflix, and I watch it for sure. That's not what I'm saying. That in and of itself isn't bad.

It's that feeling, though—that that's all I can do. At the end of the day, I have nothing left. I think if that's where you're at over and over and over again, there's a little bit of a problem there, right?

There's a drain going on in your day that probably needs to be addressed on some level.

>> Melissa: Right, exactly.

Perpetuating the cycle.

>> Rebecca: But circling back to this idea of confusion coming out of the meeting, because I think that's a good one.

My guess is you probably had to go back to other people in that meeting to reclarify what needs to happen next. Like, you couldn't make decisions on your own at that point, so now you needed to go back and say, Hey, so tell me again, what’s our next step here? What are we doing? What do you want me to do?

You couldn't take ownership over what you were doing. Things needed to be repeated on some level. It just perpetuated this cycle.

>> Melissa: Right, absolutely. Because even that. Like, the fact that I would. Oh, my gosh, now I have to go back and ask someone to kind of redo what they did. Like, that just, you know.

>> Rebecca: Yeah, that feels terrible.

>> Melissa: That triggers that girl in there, right. That, you know, she says, oh, my gosh. How could you not have your stuff together and be able to figure that out. So, yeah. And so I sit with her for a long time.

Managing Recurring Triggers Like Meetings

>> Rebecca: She was around a lot. And so there was a time—there was a session—that we actually took talking a bit about meetings in particular, because it was a triggering moment.

This is one of the things—a place that I get to with my clients, usually towards the end of our time together—where they’re able to really zoom out and say, My insecurity, or for some people, it’s inadequacy or fear of failure, tends to come up at the same point almost every single time.

Right? We could identify it as moms, sometimes, like I get angry or I get triggered by my kids every single morning when they X, Y, or Z. There are these cyclical moments where our negative spiral tends to happen.

And when you can step back and identify those places objectively, then all of a sudden, we’re able to come up with a plan to mitigate that—so you're not triggered in those moments so much.

That was the reason I brought up meetings, because I know there were meetings that tended to be triggering for you. So then we identified that and came up with a bit of a plan on how to make sure Insecure Melissa didn’t show up.

What were some of those tools that we talked about?

The 5-Minute Reset

>> Melissa: Yeah. So one of the ones that I still use is taking space for mental prep before a meeting. If I think that there might be a meeting coming up—or a situation—where one of those triggers would set me off, I schedule some intentional three to five minutes ahead of time for mental prep.

Just sitting with Insecure Melissa and talking through, Hey, what do you think might happen? Where could this go off the rails for you? And letting her voice it, right? Giving her that space to say, Yeah, well, this might happen, or this might happen.

And then walking her through, Okay, and what can we do differently in that situation? Or, How can we look at that?

>> Rebecca: Will you actually write this stuff down?

>> Melissa: Sometimes I will. Yes.

>> Rebecca: Sometimes you're like, literally take out…

>> Melissa: Literally I'm going to write this down, and I'm going to say, okay, if this happens…

>> Rebecca: Yep. Okay. It's almost like you're interviewing her a little bit.

>> Melissa: Yeah, for sure.

>> Rebecca: This is kind of one of those moments—because this client's in the meeting, or this person's in the meeting, or this is the topic, or whatever it is, or I’m leading it—whatever it is that you oftentimes like to come up.

So I’m curious: What do you think about what’s going to happen at this meeting? And let’s talk about it for a moment. What do you think my potential downfall is? Or pitfalls? Or what’s going to be really uncomfortable?

I love it. And I literally will— I wish you could actually see—show you my paper right here. Do you see how I write? I actually write my voice on one side, and I’ll write the other voice on the other side.

Having a conversation with yourself.

I do this for my own kind of insecurity, but I also do it for the confident version of me if I’m ever talking to her. And sometimes I literally interview her: So tell me what you think about that? Or Why do you think I’m feeling that way?

It’s so powerful. I love that you do that.

Okay, so you have this, like, conversation with her, and you ask her about what she thinks is going to happen, and then you come up with a plan.

What’s that plan usually look like?

>> Melissa: Yeah.

>> Rebecca: And so it's probably not all that different every single time. It's probably the same plan on some level.

>> Melissa: No, it's not. It really is. So a lot of that plan is, you know, the first part of that plan is really acknowledging that, you know what, insecure. Melissa, you're right. 

You know, you have some valid points, and what you're feeling, that it's a real feeling, and it's a valid feeling, and it's okay to have that. 

And so I think that is really the first thing for her.

>> Rebecca: And what does that do for you? I'm so curious because that's so hard for all of us to experience, that sense of acceptance. But that's essentially what you're doing, is. You’re like…

>> Melissa: Yeah, absolutely.

>> Rebecca: Yeah, you're right. This is a big meeting, and this client can be very combative. And I get it. I get that this is really a place that, this is a place that emotions are high. So I understand why you would be insecure right now. 

Why Ignoring It Makes It Louder

>> Melissa: Yeah. And I think what that does is it levels it out for me. It makes it not so explosive in the moment.

But also, I think just validating it—that it’s okay. And it’s interesting, because I think when we’ve talked about these things in sessions, I love that we kind of talk about, How do you parent her?

You know, What kinds of things do you…? And I think about that with my kids, too.

Right? And I think, Gosh, you know, with your kids—if they’re doing something that you think is bad or wrong—you may send them to timeout. And what happens when they go there?

They’re going to ask you, When can I get out of here? And if you don’t respond, they’re going to get louder and louder and louder. And I feel…

>> Rebecca: Yeah, they're going to start screaming at you from the other room, right.

You Can’t Always Choose the First Feeling—But You Can Choose the Next

>> Melissa: And I feel that with Insecure Melissa—if I don't acknowledge her, she's going to get so loud that it overpowers everything else.

So giving her that space, saying I see you and I understand what you're feeling, and what you're feeling is absolutely okay in the moment—that matters.

Because I think one of the things you said early on in one of our sessions that really stuck with me was that a lot of times, we can't always control what our first feeling is, but we can always choose our next feeling.

And I think, you know, Insecure Melissa—she's my first feeling. She just responds to those triggers. She just does it.

>> Rebecca: She just responds. It's like. It's visceral. It's just like, this is. Yeah. Can't help it. Right. It's like that feeling of instant anger that we can feel at our kids for doing something that is silly and ridiculous. Yeah, yeah. It just, like, happens.

>> Melissa: Exactly. So to say, hey. Right. It happens, and it's okay, you know? And so, like, getting to that point and giving her that space to be like, it's okay, let's say with that for a minute.

>> Rebecca: Yep. Yeah.

>> Melissa: Let's sit for, you know, what are the reasons why you think that? Right. And, you know, like I said earlier, she remembers all kinds of things, so she'll tell me.

>> Rebecca: Yeah. Yeah. I love that.

>> Melissa: And I think what was so powerful for me to realize the next step is because she loves the past so much, and, you know, going back to that is taking a minute to remind her. Yeah, those things did happen, and they were not great at the moment. And we've also survived other situations very similar to this, what we did.

>> Rebecca: Yes. Like, this really isn't a, fight or flight moment. This really isn't life or death. My, job is really not on the line, even though you want. It literally feels like it inside, the way you're responding to it, but it's really not.

>> Melissa: Yeah. Giving her some more, like exposing her to more of those memories from the past that she can latch onto. Right. If she's going to continue to pull from examples from our past, if I just continue to feed her with the.

>> Rebecca: One, the good ones, the good ones, survival ones, eventually she's going to run out of the bad ones eventually. I love that.

>> Melissa: Yeah.

The Science Behind the Voices in Your Head

>> Rebecca: And just to kind of ground this a little bit, I'm not great and versed in terms of all the right words and terminology, but this is very—what we're talking about is what I like to call your higher brain and your lower brain.

Or your prefrontal cortex and the back—or whatever it's called in the back, right? Right—the amygdala. The amygdala is the part of your brain... it's in the forward part of your brain. That's what we tend to call our conscious thinking.

It's the thinking that is higher, meaning it can think about goals, it can think about perspective. It can remember big picture, long-term things. It can remember truth in its higher form. It can remember principles. It can remember values.

The part of your brain that’s more like your survival brain or your fight-or-flight brain—I can't remember the name of what we want to call that—but I usually call it your lower brain. It's your primitive brain, if you will.

What you're doing is: primitive brain is Insecure Melissa, and higher brain is the other version of you that's remembering all of these things. And you're literally just having the two talk to each other.

So your conscious brain is kind of talking to that subconscious insecurity within you, and you're having a conversation. You're kind of recognizing, Hey, survival brain—we need you around. I appreciate the heads-up that this meeting and this client can be very triggering at times.

And let me also remind you of some of the other values that we live by—and the important things to remember—and memories that serve us well instead of all of the bad stuff.

That's literally what's happening—from a science perspective—if that is helpful for people to understand. This isn’t weird. It’s not fluff. It’s actually grounded in quite a lot of science to show where these two voices come from within us.

From Fight-or-Flight to Self-Leadership: What’s Changed in the Room?

And the tool of talking to them—thinking about the conscious brain or the amygdala brain kind of parenting the other one—because the other one is based in fight-or-flight and survival, which is, you know, a toddler.

That's their survival. That’s really all they’ve got. They can’t think long term. They can’t think about values. They don’t have goals. Toddlers don’t have goals.

So that's essentially what we're talking about here.

We’ve talked a lot about what this triggering moment looks like and getting specific. Now that you’ve learned a lot about her—you’ve learned how to parent her and have a conversation with her—what’s different now?

Like, coming back to the idea of a meeting where you’ve utilized these tools, how are you showing up differently in some of these triggering meetings in a way that’s really different than the way you were before?

>> Melissa: I think one of the first ways is, I'm not allowing her to lead. Right. I'm not allowing her to be the primary voice in the meetings, but in order to do that, I'm speaking to her more gently. I'm saying, hey, it's okay.

>> Rebecca: Yeah.

>> Melissa: And, reminding her again, like I said, some of those things, you know, I've literally made lists of hard things I've done in my life right over the course of however many years. Here's the hard things that, you know.

>> Rebecca: You think this is really hard, but let me remind you of the hard things.

>> Melissa: Exactly. You've done so many things that are so much harder. So it's not serving us well to sit, you know, in that, like, oh, my gosh, what's gonna go wrong space. 

And also, I think just the whole idea of not letting her after the meeting, I think that's been a long time. Like, she doesn't even. We don't even have much conversation after the meeting anymore.

>> Rebecca: Right.

>> Melissa: I don't want her to remind me that, oh, you should have done this and should have done that. It's a, we're going to walk out, and I'm going to remind her that we walked into that situation or that meeting with the best intent and as much information as we heard at that time, we were as prepared as we could. And, oh, my gosh, isn't it a gift that we learned some new things in that time?

>> Rebecca: Yeah. Like, if things didn't quite go the way you wanted rather than beating yourself up. It's like, oh, you know, we actually walked in in the best with the best way we possibly could, and it still didn't quite go the way we want. 

That doesn't mean I did anything wrong, but look at what we learned from that and what we're gaining from that. So it's like a real shift in, you know, to something that is more like knowledge based instead of shame based.

>> Melissa: Exactly.

>> Rebecca: Yes. exactly.

>> Melissa: And I go back to when we had talked about early on, like, what are the things that I really value? And if you remember, learning was really high for me.

>> Rebecca: Right.

Shifting to a new mindset.

>> Melissa: I said, I love to be in situations where I can learn things, and if I start to look at those situations that I think could be potentially triggering and could make me feel insecure if I approach them as learning opportunities, I go in with a whole different mindset. Right. 

So I go in and say, okay, you know what? You're right, insecure Melissa. I'm not going to know everything. There's going to be smarter people than me in the room, and that is so great because we're going to get.

>> Rebecca: To fill this knowledge that we have, this learning.

>> Melissa: Exactly. I love that, you know, so we start to look. When I start to look at it like that, it helps me show up differently, as opposed to, this is not every meeting that I go in has to be an opportunity for me to perform. Right? 

I don't have to look for validation in every one of these positions, in every one of these places. I can just show up to take in to see what I can learn, to see how I can grow within those places.

You Don’t Have to Perform to Lead Powerfully

>> Rebecca: I love that you just said that. That does feel really powerful to me—to think that I don’t have to go into every meeting thinking that I have to perform. What a beautiful thought.

And yet we so often do—almost every touchpoint with our boss, every meeting that we’re leading, every meeting that we’re a part of. It’s almost like this sense of needing to prove ourselves in some way.

And yet, when we think about the best leaders, the best bosses we’ve ever had—they’re the ones who give us a voice and receive our voice.

They tap into our knowledge and then run with it—which, inherent in that, means that they didn’t have the right answer. They were looking to me or to their team to help provide direction, and then they ran with it.

Those are the best leaders. And we actually want to be that for our people. We want to be the kind of leader that empowers others. Which means we can’t always come with the answers.

We have to lean on other people to have answers and then give them the opportunity to speak.

That’s such a beautiful image that came to mind as I was thinking about that.

So, we know now that you walk away from these meetings with a whole lot less going on in your brain—a whole lot less rumination, a whole lot less back-and-forth, a whole lot less second-guessing that often comes with insecurity.

And then it sounds like when there is a little bit of that, you're able to redirect it into something that feels more useful—rather than redirecting it into a story about how you're not good enough, or how you’re an imposter and shouldn’t be here.

You kind of redirect it into, Yeah, but I actually really love learning, or I did everything I could to prepare, and here’s all the evidence for it.

So you redirect it into the positive instead of letting it spiral into the negative.

>> Melissa: Yeah. Like, the whole idea of reframing my narrative has become kind of a mantra for me too.

>> Rebecca: Right?

How do I live as my most authentic self?

>> Melissa: Like, I am the author of my story. I am writing the words on these pages, and so I can do that.

And I think—so many things that you had said—one of the things I was thinking about was when you talked about, in one of our sessions, that value doesn't come from performance. It comes from how I view myself.

And so I think a lot of that has contributed to this whole idea of reframing my narrative.

Also, the reason why I want to keep Insecure Melissa around—I don’t want to push her off. I don’t want to think that there was a part of me that was unworthy.

Right? It’s all part of this whole package.

And, you know, as I think about some of the things we talked about—my goals for coming into this whole process with you—it was, How do I live as my most authentic self?

And if I can't let her stay in that space—but also help her reframe the narrative of what she believes to be true about life and our existence—then I won’t ever get there.

Is Insecurity Really Part of My Identity?

>> Rebecca: Let's answer this question really directly, because I think I could imagine some listeners out there are thinking—because you used this terminology earlier—which was, Insecurity is a part of my identity.

Like, ooh… who wants insecurity to be a part of our identity? That sounds awful.

And even as you said it, I went, The idea of insecurity being a part of our identity…and yet it’s 100% true.

We’ve been talking about her as being a piece of your identity. So let’s just answer this question really quickly, and I want to hear your thoughts on this:

Why is it important that insecurity remains a part of our identity—and your identity—rather than trying to get rid of her altogether?

Insecurity Reveals Strength You’d Never See Otherwise

>> Melissa: That’s a great question. I think if she wasn’t there—if I didn’t have Insecure Melissa as a piece of who I am—I don’t know that I would ever be able to really call out, Here are the hard things that I’ve been able to do.

Here are the successes that I’ve been able to achieve, both in my professional life and with my kids.

I don’t know that I’d be able to say, I’ve built up this endurance, if she wasn’t there to remind me a little bit of how far…

>> Rebecca: So she's like your yin to your yang. On some level, she is the joy to your sadness.

>> Melissa: Exactly. And I do see her kind of there.

>> Rebecca: Yeah, for sure. I love that. I also think that, I mean, we talked about this earlier, but I want to make sure we highlighted it as we talk about this directly, which is that she's very insightful.

>> Melissa: She is.

>> Rebecca: She’s not just making up a story. She is giving you a flavor of the truth on some level. So, for example, she always pops up when you're going into a particular meeting with a particular client. There is a level of—this client is probably pretty particular, wants things a certain way, and is maybe very abrasive.

Insecurity is reminding you of that, so that you come in prepared. She has some foresight for you.

We just don’t want her to be the main voice in everything, right?

So we don’t want to get rid of her, because she has things that are actually insightful for us—things we want to listen to. She has something to listen to.

>> Melissa: And at the core, she's not out - I don't think at her core, she's out to sabotage me. Right. She's not there to.

>> Rebecca: She's there for..to protect you.

My insecurity is ultimately helping me.

>> Melissa: ..Be my enemy. She's there to be a protector. Right. Yeah. If I look, and so when I look at my whole self as valuable, I'm gonna approach things differently, right? 

This is the value, because this is. She's making me think about how I enter meetings, about how I enter interactions with my sons, about how I approach my friends. She's helping me think through those things so that I can come through to, in all of those places as the truest version of me.

Why You Shouldn’t Fire Your Inner Alarm System

>> Rebecca: Yeah, yep, definitely. And one of the questions I will often ask my clients when we’re having this conversation around Why do you want inadequacy to be around? or Why do you want insecurity to be around?—like, why are you not trying to get rid of her.

In the event that there is, in fact, a major threat—if your job was really on the line, if the company really might lose this client, if things were really terrible with your kids, or whatever it is—and they’re going to walk out on you, I don’t know… whatever the threat, If there was actually a real threat, she’s the one that’s going to tell you.

So if you get rid of her altogether, then you’ve gotten rid of the insight into actual threat—and then you walk around in complete ignorance of what might be happening.

And nobody wants that either.

We do need her, in the event of an actual threat, to say something to us—which means we have to be able to interact with her and know when she’s really telling the truth, or when her truth is a little bit skewed, or whatever that might be.

Right? So we have to have some relationship with her in order to, in the event of an actual emergency, listen to what she has to say.

>> Melissa: Yeah, absolutely.

The Myth of Confidence: Why Getting Rid of Insecurity Isn’t the Goal

>> Rebecca: So good. One of the other reasons for me why I think it's really important to keep her around and not necessarily get rid of her altogether is—the idea of getting rid of her? Like, wow. That sounds exhausting.

The idea that I am going to be an actual human being that can move through life and never feel insecure? Never feel that? Come on. That’s not the human experience.

Ambition Requires Discomfort—And That’s Okay

If we're going to go after big lives—this podcast is about being ambitious, right? Which means we have big goals. We want big things. We want to make impact in our life. We want to have big dreams.

That’s the part of being ambitious—we want to do lots of things. And we have the capability and the capacity to do lots of things. That’s what makes us ambitious.

And in so doing, that will come with lots of things we’ve never done before, and lots of things that people around us aren’t doing.

And inevitably, that means discomfort. It means potential failure. It means not doing things exactly well. It means making decisions—and it not working out.

To go after an ambitious life and to think that you’d be able to do that and never feel insecure, never fear failure, never feel inadequate or incapable—that’s… that’s asinine, right?

It’s just not going to happen. 100% it’s not going to happen.

So if that’s never going to happen—because we actually want a life that is big and bold and meaningful—and that life requires feeling insecure and potentially failing and actually failing…

Then the best next option is to learn how to manage that side of us, so it’s not so big and so uncomfortable all the time.

>> Melissa: Yeah, absolutely.

The Tools That Help Keep Insecurity in Check

>> Rebecca: So I know we're coming to an end here in this interview, but I definitely want to hear any of these other tools.

We've talked about some of the tools that you have used to parent—we talked about parenting Melissa, we've talked about talking to her, literally writing out conversations.

We've talked about remembering your past and remembering your past successes and redirecting your brain there.

What are some of these other tools that you have learned over the course of our coaching together to manage and parent that insecurity within you?

>> Melissa: Yeah, those have been the biggest ones. But I think in one of our last sessions, we talked about the pivot map, which is one of the things I loved when we talked about that—mostly because I think I’d mentioned when you first brought it up, Oh, it makes me think of this Friends episode when they’re trying to move this couch, and this whole…

>> Rebecca: I went back and actually looked at that Friends episode, just so you know—when they were trying to get the couch up the staircase, and they can’t because the couch is way too big. Freaking big for them.

>> Melissa: Big. Right. And so they're doing the whole pivot!

The Pivot Map: Same Goal, New Approach

But the thing I love about that whole idea of pivot and having a pivot map is—my goal stays the same.

Where I want to get to—I still want to get the couch up the stairs. I still want to get to here. But I’m just going to have to look at it a little bit differently. So how can I look at this differently, and not in the way that I’ve always thought it's going to work?

>> Rebecca: Yeah.

>> Melissa: So I really have loved looking, using that. And just. And I. Again, I kind of go back to. We've talked a lot about the visual thing, so, like, that orange couch is in my head. Every time I think about. It's time to pivot.

>> Rebecca: Yep. It's time to pivot.

>> Melissa: That's right. So I love. I love that. I love that. You know, we just. Permission to do that, too.

>> Rebecca: Yeah, let me touch on that real fast, just because not everybody's going to know what you're talking about with the pivot map. 

There is an episode not that long ago, and I can link to it in the show notes where I talked about the pivot moment, and that's what she's talking about. It's the moment when…or you tell me, when is your pivot moment? I don't need to tell it.

Melissa’s Pivot Moment

>> Melissa: Well, I mean, you can tell it. I think my pivot moment for a lot of these situations is when I can feel or when I can hear insecure Melissa louder than I can hear the…

>> Rebecca: The parent of you. Right.

>> Melissa: The parent.

>> Rebecca: The confident version of you. Yeah, exactly.

>> Melissa: When I can start to hear her louder than anything else. And so that is my moment when I'm like, whoa. Because I've come to, you know, through this time of really recognizing her voice. I come to that.

 I can recognize her voice, and I can recognize how I feel when she's talking to me. And so I can do this, like, oh, so it's that moment when I'm.

Recognizing the Moment Insecurity Takes Over

>> Rebecca: That goes back to what we were talking about earlier—when we were mapping out: What does Insecure Melissa sound like in your head? Feel like in your body? And what do you do when she's ruling the show?

Because the more in tune your conscious brain is to that—and what that looks like specifically for you—the faster you can recognize it, and then pivot out of it.

That’s what we’re talking about with this pivot moment.

It’s when your conscious mind becomes aware that Insecure Melissa is taking over. She’s about to enter the building, and she’s going to make all the decisions moving forward if you don’t do something about it.

>> Melissa: All the things, right?

>> Rebecca: We're just, like, overcome with, like, we just overcome with the big feelings and the, like, the panic and all of the discomfort that comes with that. We can't remember anything. So I really want to have these tools that, like, your brain can come back to it so quickly. Like, oh, yeah. When I feel this way, then I do this, and then I do this, and then I do this. And then she goes away.

>> Melissa: Yeah. Yes.

>> Rebecca: Okay, so the pivot map has been crucial for you as another tool of just, like, really zooming back out again. And here's what all of this kind of looks like.

From Spiral to Stop: What Taking Back Control Actually Looks Like

>> Melissa: Here’s what all of this looks like, right? And here’s what I’m going to do in those moments—whether it’s physical… and for me, we’ve talked about this too.

Like, I’m a very visual, physical person. Sometimes it’s literally a physical stop. I can feel it—you know, I sit up straight or I go, Okay, no. Stop. Like, hands on the desk—a physical stop.

So I get to that physical stop, and then I can go through some of those things we’ve talked about before.

Like, Cool—let’s just validate her feelings and say, Hey, you’re right.

But now let’s go to this list of hard things that we’ve done. Let’s remember the last time that this was successful. Let’s focus on what could happen if this does go right—instead of…

>> Rebecca: What a great question, right?

>> Melissa: Like, instead of imagining, like, oh, my gosh, what's going to happen if this goes wrong? You know? 

What's going to happen if this goes right? And sitting in that minute for a minute, and then I'm like, okay, so that is that question. Like, wait a minute - what could happen if this goes right? That's kind of my pivot question.

>> Rebecca: I love that. I love that.

It changes everything.

>> Melissa: Because then I go, oh, yeah, what would happen then? Which also then changes the way that you appear, that you show up in that moment. Right. It changes all of that.

>> Rebecca: You're going to come out of that pivot moment, like, in a completely different energy, in a completely different headspace, feeling better about yourself, more secure, more confident yourself, you know, and insecurity kind of fizzled out. And so you're. Yeah, you're going to show up completely differently in the meeting or in the situation, the conversation, the moment, whatever it may be right.

>> Melissa: Yes, absolutely.

>> Rebecca: I love it. so good. What have you found to be the result? Like, just the overall result of really learning how to manage and parent insecure Melissa?

“You’ve Always Had the Power”: What Changed When I Met Insecure Melissa

>> Melissa: Well, I just talked about how I show up differently, but I think one of the things that really struck me in the past couple weeks—as I’ve been reflecting on the time—is one of my favorite quotes from one of my favorite movies, The Wizard of Oz.

There’s a quote at the end where Glinda says to Dorothy, "You’ve always had the power. You just had to find it for yourself."

And to me, this whole process—understanding who Insecure Melissa is and how she can really be a help in those situations, or a motivator for showing up differently—has been eye-opening.

She’s always been a part of me. It’s just about understanding how to talk to her, how to be gentle with her, how to treat her like a friend, and recognize how she can be a help instead of a hindrance.

Making Room for Joy, Creativity, and What’s Next

>> Rebecca: Yeah. And in our last session, we talked about so many good things you’ve started to do—because Insecure Melissa isn’t around so much anymore.

You’re taking a pottery class or painting class—I can’t remember which one you’re in right now—but you have the mind-space to start really thinking about, What do I want to do? What do I love doing? What’s new for me? What’s next for me?

The motivation you have—because she is not around so much, and she’s being managed in the way she needs to be managed—there’s so much opening up.

>> Melissa: Right. So I'm not cocooning with Netflix and wine.

>> Rebecca: Right.

>> Melissa: I'm, like, experience all of these different.

>> Rebecca: I don't know how many good books you've read since we started. I remember that was a thing. You were like, I used to read, and I never read anymore. And so we. We made that a part of, you know, the goal here and baking and…

I have more energy to do the things I love.

>> Melissa: All of those little things. Yeah. That I was like, oh, my gosh, when I don't. When I don't allow those icky emotions to drive my decisions, it's. I feel physically, I have the energy. Right. I feel like I want to do more of these things. I want to do more of this. I want to do more.

>> Rebecca: Cook more for your son, sit down and eat dinner with them more. You make sure you make it home on time for them in a way that feels different than before. 

I mean, all these things that we talk about in, like, the perfect kind of life we want, right. The balanced life that we want that where you have a life outside of work and you're doing fun things and you're enjoying hobbies, and you're being successful at work at the same time. 

Like, so much of your ability to do that and go after that type of life has happened because she's just not in your head.

>> Melissa: Yes.

Confidence You Can Feel (and See)

>> Rebecca: So good. I love it. And I told you this the last time I saw you, but, like, the smile, like, the. I hope everybody looks at this on YouTube, because you could just see, like, she's exuding this, like, energy and this smile, and it's just. It's such a beautiful thing. 

And I love where you have come, Melissa, what a journey you've been on.

>> Melissa: Thank you. Absolutely. It's been so worth it.

>> Rebecca: So good. Any parting thoughts you have for other working moms out there that are feeling insecure?

>> Melissa: I think one of the things I would say, don't be scared of it. Don't be scared of it. Invite it in, call it what it is, name it, and let it kind of work for you.

Talk to Insecurity Like You’d Talk to a Scared Child

>> Rebecca:  I love it. Sometimes I like to think about her—or this part of me—and I want to talk with her like I would talk to my son, who’s afraid that there’s a monster in the closet.

And I’m trying to get him to bed, and he’s really afraid of monsters under his bed and in his closet. And that’s not the moment I’m going to yell at him or tell him he’s silly or that it’s ridiculous and he shouldn’t be feeling that way.

I’m not going to get all harsh. No—I’m going to lean in and be like, Oh, buddy. I know. It is really scary. What can we do? Should we go look?

It’s that energy. That softness. That’s where we want to get to.

And again, why we like to think sometimes about parenting her. Because it does—it’s like a toddler that’s really afraid. And we would show up differently to her if we weren’t judging her, and we were recognizing, This is just pretty normal for a toddler to be afraid like this.

And so now we just gotta talk with her a little bit differently.

>> Melissa: Exactly.

>> Rebecca: I love it. Thank you for your wisdom. Thanks for your vulnerability. So good.

>> Melissa: Thank you. Thank you.

>> Rebecca: Absolutely all right, working moms, whatever you're facing that insecurity, inadequacy, fear of failure, whatever it is, fear of disappointing people, label it for yourself. 

But if you need help really learning how to manage her and have a different relationship with that side of you, that is what I'm here for in coaching. I'd love to connect with you. 

Check the show notes in order to book a time to connect. All right, working moms, until next week. Let's get to it. 

Rebecca Olson